462 replies to this topic

[ccabal86]

You throw the European Socialist around as if it were an insult. I can't understand why you would, because currently, Socialist European countries are doing much better than the United States. France has made itself an example to be followed. Its social security is one of the greatest I've ever seen or read about. I was in France during January and I fell sick. I'm not a national of the EU or USA or any big country, but I was seen by a doctor for free and prescribed antibiotics that cost me only 10 Euros. Would that have happened in the US? I don't think so. There are many other examples as to why it works. It may or may not work in the US, but I don't think that socialism is a bad thing. In fact, I happen to believe that bad capitalism (the type of capitalism that actually occurs in the US) will always be inferior to great socialism.

 

Too bad most European core countries still haven't been able to ride out the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis. Just look at the pathetic growth rates EU core members have produced post 2008 (Germany is an exception). Compare that with the growth rate of the US where the crisis hit the hardest - you can see a healthy rebound from 2010 onwards.

 

Of course, there are a million factors to consider, but it's worth pointing out that welfare states only work well when their economies are strong enough to bear the significant operational costs, and their economies are much slower to recover after crises.

Edited by ccabal86, 13 March 2016 - 11:49 AM.

[Icewolf]

 

You throw the European Socialist around as if it were an insult. I can't understand why you would, because currently, Socialist European countries are doing much better than the United States. France has made itself an example to be followed. Its social security is one of the greatest I've ever seen or read about. I was in France during January and I fell sick. I'm not a national of the EU or USA or any big country, but I was seen by a doctor for free and prescribed antibiotics that cost me only 10 Euros. Would that have happened in the US? I don't think so. There are many other examples as to why it works. It may or may not work in the US, but I don't think that socialism is a bad thing. In fact, I happen to believe that bad capitalism (the type of capitalism that actually occurs in the US) will always be inferior to great socialism.

 

Too bad most European core countries still haven't been able to ride out the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis. Just look at the pathetic growth rates EU core members have produced post 2008 (Germany is an exception). Compare that with the growth rate of the US where the crisis hit the hardest - you can see a healthy rebound from 2010 onwards.

 

Of course, there are a million factors to consider, but it's worth pointing out that welfare states only work well when their economies are strong enough to bear the significant operational costs, and their economies are much slower to recover after crises.

 

The main factor being EU states following a strict neo-classical economic policy of austerity in the face of recession. The same policy that the US Republican party advocated. It didn't work, hence the slow growth. German growth has been rocky and mostly driven by export demand supported by a devalued currency, and the fact their own programme of austerity ended sooner than a lot of other countries. 

 

The US, which did not follow the same path of harsh spending cuts had a faster falling deficit, and saw actual economic growth. The UK, which had some half hearted austerity (consisting in large part of cover for the Tories to cut things they dislike, like disability benefits whilst jacking up state pensions for their voter base)  fell somewhere in the middle of the road. 

[Lysistrata]

Firstly, if European Socialist is an insult, why are you throwing it around? I thought this was supposed to be a civilised discussion. 

It really comes down to the blurry line between being civilized, and being honest. I try to be honestly civilized. If your a Socialist... you are not offended by it. If you are offended by it, and you are in favor of government controlled, cradle to grave entitlements... then your just a liar. You may believe you are some kind of Robin Hood hero, out for the little guy, and the guardian angel of the less fortunate, but in reality you are a Socialist, an underachiever, a mooch, a thief... someone who believes they are entitled to free living just because they breathe air. I am a Conservative Capitalist... and I have been called much worse. Just being honestly civilized.

Well if you're a capitalist, why are you pissed about jobs going outside? As capitalists, corporations are going to utilize the factors of production in the most efficient way and they find that someone else is willing to provide same level of quality and quantity at fraction of the costs, probably much better qualified too. What's all the fuss about that? 

There is no such thing as fair trade between one country that has labor laws, minimum wage requirements, Unions, and an ever increasing demand for higher income... and a Communist country that has enslaved their population for the sole purpose of killing the economy of the other. The United States no longer makes anything anymore. We are largely a service nation now... selling and maintaining products that we ourselves purchase, that are made elsewhere. We get our cheap stuff... but everyone is using their welfare checks and credit cards to buy them... this must change.

[dagonslayer51]

 

You throw the European Socialist around as if it were an insult.

Because we're American Capitalists... and it is.

 

In fact, I happen to believe that bad capitalism (the type of capitalism that actually occurs in the US) will always be inferior to great socialism.

Let us know when Panama, or any other country, is ready to lead the world... until then, leave it to us.

 

 

If it weren't for the fact that the United States basically controlled Panama for more than 86 years, I would me more inclined to believe in American Capitalism. But since we were once ruled over by americans whose sole purpose was to seek a profit, who trained the man that became a dictator in our country and that came in guns blazing, killing hundreds of innocent people just to remove that same man because he had become independent of his american control, my faith for american capitalism is exactly what you would expect.

 

Lets see, how has American Capitalism affected my country? Oh yeah, the independence. We were "helped" by the americans to gain our independence from Colombia in 1903. But as you may know, the US didn't do that because of the kindness of their hearts. They did this so they could build the canal, knowing the profit that could be made from that, as well as the strategic position it had.

 

Shall I remind you of more of the Panama Canal? The US took an area generally extending five miles on each side of the canal and that territory was "part of the US" from 1903 to 1979. I'm not the most patriotic man you'll see, but even I am outraged at the fact that that territory was rightfully ours. My parents and grandparents grew up knowing of that place where the "gringos" lived, but they couldn't enter. The Americans born there, were US nationals, even though that territory was rightfully panamanian. We only got back what was rightfully ours on December 31st, 1999. 

 

How this ties to profit you may ask. The whole purpose of building the Canal was for the profits it brought. No matter all the consequences. No matter the events of January 9th, 1964; no matter the invasion we suffered on 1989. The only way we managed to get Carter to sign the treaty was to threaten to blow up the Canal. My country has suffered a lot in the hands of American capitalism, and some scars haven't finished healing.

 

In fact, if the US would stop meddling in foreign affairs that they have no business in, maybe there would be other countries ready to lead the world. Oh wait, they do have business. Oil, strategic positions, and profit. And I don't see European Socialists throwing around American Capitalist as an insult. I've heard american imperailism, american greed, americans interfering in everything, but not american capitalist as an insult.

 

Look man, I respect your beliefs, and all I wrote was written with the intention to inform and for opinion, but I don't mean to insult anyone. If something sounds as an insult, excuse me, it was not my intention. I believe in tolerance of everyone's beliefs, political, social, economic or anything else. But, you need to stop acting al high and mighty about capitalism, because it is a system that has as much flaws as any other, including socialism.

 

PS: I'm not sure who said it, but it seems that there is a confusion between socialism and communism. Here is a link so you can clear up your doubts. http://www.diffen.com/difference/Communism_vs_Socialism

[Icewolf]

 

Firstly, if European Socialist is an insult, why are you throwing it around? I thought this was supposed to be a civilised discussion. 

It really comes down to the blurry line between being civilized, and being honest. I try to be honestly civilized. If your a Socialist... you are not offended by it. If you are offended by it, and you are in favor of government controlled, cradle to grave entitlements... then your just a liar. You may believe you are some kind of Robin Hood hero, out for the little guy, and the guardian angel of the less fortunate, but in reality you are a Socialist, an underachiever, a mooch, a thief... someone who believes they are entitled to free living just because they breathe air. I am a Conservative Capitalist... and I have been called much worse. Just being honestly civilized.

I'm not offended by it, you were the one that described it as an insult. In anycase, I do not believe in the ending of private enterprise, therefore I am not a socialist. It is not that I am a liar, it is that your definition of socialist does not match the commonly used one. 

 

I do find the fact that you are calling anyone who thinks a social welfare safety net is a good idea an underachiever a little strange as it means your list of underachievers includes Warren Buffet, the current US President, Stephen Hawking and a lot of other extremely successful and talented people. 

[onbekende]

Silly people, capitalism is good up until it stops giving Lys more then the median income. Socialism is bad up until Lys finds himself below the poverty line due to capitalism

[Lysistrata]

All That

 

Oh, you're one of those. Some people believe that because their ancestors once walked around on some dirt, that somehow that makes them the "rightful owner" of that same dirt. Then someone else comes in, takes over, creates laws to govern the dirt, and sets up legal ownership... then reality sets in. There is one U.S. President that was weaker than our current one, and that was Jimmy Carter. The only reason the canal that we built is not still ours... is Jimmy Carter sold out his country. A blown up canal could be rebuilt, and the only permanent effect would be the death of those that blew it up. We can take it back anytime, but then we would be called assholes. Oh my, we already are called assholes.

 

Silly people, capitalism is good up until it stops giving Lys more then the median income. Socialism is bad up until Lys finds himself below the poverty line due to capitalism

I've been around awhile, and I have experienced a lot of time under the median income. It was never the responsibility of others.

[dagonslayer51]

 

All That

 

Oh, you're one of those. Some people believe that because their ancestors once walked around on some dirt, that somehow that makes them the "rightful owner" of that same dirt. Then someone else comes in, takes over, creates laws to govern the dirt, and sets up legal ownership... then reality sets in. There is one U.S. President that was weaker than our current one, and that was Jimmy Carter. The only reason the canal that we built is not still ours... is Jimmy Carter sold out his country. A blown up canal could be rebuilt, and the only permanent effect would be the death of those that blew it up. We can take it back anytime, but then we would be called assholes. Oh my, we already are called assholes.

 

Silly people, capitalism is good up until it stops giving Lys more then the median income. Socialism is bad up until Lys finds himself below the poverty line due to capitalism

I've been around awhile, and I have experienced a lot of time under the median income. It was never the responsibility of others.

 

 

Oh, so you are one of those. Some people believe that just because they appear, they can take whatever they want no matter who was there before you, just because you have more power. Oh, I know what that sounds like. It sounds like a bully, or a thief. That just because they want something, and they have the means to take it away from others, they take it. I'm guessing that you are against Native Americans and their true claim to the land that they rightfully own. 

 

And by someone coming in and creating laws to govern the dirt, you mean coming to an already established society and removing anyone who is in power because their way of living is "inferior to yours". You sound just like the European kingdoms coming to America. And who said there weren't laws govering the use of that "dirt". Maybe there were no laws as we know them now, but there were surely rules and norms to be followed. The laws were not necessary because the greed of people wasn't known to them in a scale as large as that of the colonizing kingdoms, or like the USA has showed in current times.

[onbekende]

I heared the hilarious "native white population" gimmick was used once again recently by Trump supporters, please do enlighten us on the effect of "might makes right"

 

As for you being under median income on own responcibility, funnely enough in most socialist welfare states you will ALSO not get benefits if you make yourself unemployed. Welfare =/= universal basic income.

[Lysistrata]

Oh, so you are one of those. Some people believe that just because they appear, they can take whatever they want no matter who was there before you, just because you have more power. Oh, I know what that sounds like. It sounds like a bully, or a thief. That just because they want something, and they have the means to take it away from others, they take it. I'm guessing that you are against Native Americans and their true claim to the land that they rightfully own.    And by someone coming in and creating laws to govern the dirt, you mean coming to an already established society and removing anyone who is in power because their way of living is "inferior to yours". You sound just like the European kingdoms coming to America. And who said there weren't laws govering the use of that "dirt". Maybe there were no laws as we know them now, but there were surely rules and norms to be followed. The laws were not necessary because the greed of people wasn't known to them in a scale as large as that of the colonizing kingdoms, or like the USA has showed in current times.

I am merely showing you the difference of what you believe, and what is reality. The huge mistake that Socialists make is they believe that life is fair... that's the stupidest thing anyone can ever think, and why you guys are all so miserable.

[ccabal86]

 

 

You throw the European Socialist around as if it were an insult. I can't understand why you would, because currently, Socialist European countries are doing much better than the United States. France has made itself an example to be followed. Its social security is one of the greatest I've ever seen or read about. I was in France during January and I fell sick. I'm not a national of the EU or USA or any big country, but I was seen by a doctor for free and prescribed antibiotics that cost me only 10 Euros. Would that have happened in the US? I don't think so. There are many other examples as to why it works. It may or may not work in the US, but I don't think that socialism is a bad thing. In fact, I happen to believe that bad capitalism (the type of capitalism that actually occurs in the US) will always be inferior to great socialism.

 

Too bad most European core countries still haven't been able to ride out the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis. Just look at the pathetic growth rates EU core members have produced post 2008 (Germany is an exception). Compare that with the growth rate of the US where the crisis hit the hardest - you can see a healthy rebound from 2010 onwards.

 

Of course, there are a million factors to consider, but it's worth pointing out that welfare states only work well when their economies are strong enough to bear the significant operational costs, and their economies are much slower to recover after crises.

 

The main factor being EU states following a strict neo-classical economic policy of austerity in the face of recession. The same policy that the US Republican party advocated. It didn't work, hence the slow growth. German growth has been rocky and mostly driven by export demand supported by a devalued currency, and the fact their own programme of austerity ended sooner than a lot of other countries. 

 

The US, which did not follow the same path of harsh spending cuts had a faster falling deficit, and saw actual economic growth. The UK, which had some half hearted austerity (consisting in large part of cover for the Tories to cut things they dislike, like disability benefits whilst jacking up state pensions for their voter base)  fell somewhere in the middle of the road. 

 

 

Yes, but the situation was only exacerbeated by the fact that European states refused to make substantial rollabacks to their overly extensive welfare systems. Coupled with the austerity measures this meant that there was little to no economic stimulus, to help the employers back on their feet.

[dagonslayer51]

 

Oh, so you are one of those. Some people believe that just because they appear, they can take whatever they want no matter who was there before you, just because you have more power. Oh, I know what that sounds like. It sounds like a bully, or a thief. That just because they want something, and they have the means to take it away from others, they take it. I'm guessing that you are against Native Americans and their true claim to the land that they rightfully own.    And by someone coming in and creating laws to govern the dirt, you mean coming to an already established society and removing anyone who is in power because their way of living is "inferior to yours". You sound just like the European kingdoms coming to America. And who said there weren't laws govering the use of that "dirt". Maybe there were no laws as we know them now, but there were surely rules and norms to be followed. The laws were not necessary because the greed of people wasn't known to them in a scale as large as that of the colonizing kingdoms, or like the USA has showed in current times.

I am merely showing you the difference of what you believe, and what is reality. The huge mistake that Socialists make is they believe that life is fair... that's the stupidest thing anyone can ever think, and why you guys are all so miserable.

 

 

Wasn't it your famed president Lincoln that once mentioned something about a government of the people, by the people, for the people? That sounds oddly socialist doesn't it? Wasn't he a member of the Republican Party? Because it sure seems that the actual Republican party doesn't believe in a government of the people, by the people and for the people. It looks more like a government of the wealthy, by the wealthy and for the wealthy. And those wealthy persons are only 1% of the population of the country. Doesn't the US intervene in foreign countries to end a dictatorship or a "terrible leader"? Maybe they should look inwards first and take a look at exactly what kind of people they have running a national party.

[Lysistrata]

Wasn't it your famed president Lincoln that once mentioned something about a government of the people, by the people, for the people? That sounds oddly socialist doesn't it?

No... it sounds oddly like a Republic.

 

This is a big day. The election results tonight could very well change the course of history. 

[Shahenshah]

Firstly, if European Socialist is an insult, why are you throwing it around? I thought this was supposed to be a civilised discussion. 

It really comes down to the blurry line between being civilized, and being honest. I try to be honestly civilized. If your a Socialist... you are not offended by it. If you are offended by it, and you are in favor of government controlled, cradle to grave entitlements... then your just a liar. You may believe you are some kind of Robin Hood hero, out for the little guy, and the guardian angel of the less fortunate, but in reality you are a Socialist, an underachiever, a mooch, a thief... someone who believes they are entitled to free living just because they breathe air. I am a Conservative Capitalist... and I have been called much worse. Just being honestly civilized.

Well if you're a capitalist, why are you pissed about jobs going outside? As capitalists, corporations are going to utilize the factors of production in the most efficient way and they find that someone else is willing to provide same level of quality and quantity at fraction of the costs, probably much better qualified too. What's all the fuss about that? 

There is no such thing as fair trade between one country that has labor laws, minimum wage requirements, Unions, and an ever increasing demand for higher income... and a Communist country that has enslaved their population for the sole purpose of killing the economy of the other. The United States no longer makes anything anymore. We are largely a service nation now... selling and maintaining products that we ourselves purchase, that are made elsewhere. We get our cheap stuff... but everyone is using their welfare checks and credit cards to buy them... this must change.

Ok, so, youre saying a semi socialist country is whipping the capitalist country. That kinda negates your point.The Communist country you talk of has created the single biggest economic miracle of our lifetimes by pulling hundreds of millions out of poverty into middle class, meanwhile, something opposite is happening in USA.

[The Warrior]

 

 

Oh, so you are one of those. Some people believe that just because they appear, they can take whatever they want no matter who was there before you, just because you have more power. Oh, I know what that sounds like. It sounds like a bully, or a thief. That just because they want something, and they have the means to take it away from others, they take it. I'm guessing that you are against Native Americans and their true claim to the land that they rightfully own.    And by someone coming in and creating laws to govern the dirt, you mean coming to an already established society and removing anyone who is in power because their way of living is "inferior to yours". You sound just like the European kingdoms coming to America. And who said there weren't laws govering the use of that "dirt". Maybe there were no laws as we know them now, but there were surely rules and norms to be followed. The laws were not necessary because the greed of people wasn't known to them in a scale as large as that of the colonizing kingdoms, or like the USA has showed in current times.

I am merely showing you the difference of what you believe, and what is reality. The huge mistake that Socialists make is they believe that life is fair... that's the stupidest thing anyone can ever think, and why you guys are all so miserable.

 

 

Because it sure seems that the actual Republican party doesn't believe in a government of the people, by the people and for the people. It looks more like a government of the wealthy, by the wealthy and for the wealthy.

How do you feel about a president that consistently forces executive order after executive order on the people completely circumventing the democratic process? Is that a government that is "of the people, by the people and for the people"?

[TheSphinxOfDarkness]

I truly hope for the sake of the entire world that trump doesn't get elected. A man who once looked at a homeless person and said "He has eight billion dollars more than me", gone bankrupt, sues everyone he can think to sue. And thinks an entire religious group should be outlawed. Take that particular comment, ban all muslims, replace it with Jewish, remind you of someone? In my opinion anyone who votes for, or supports trump is willingly ignorant.

[Lysistrata]

I truly hope for the sake of the entire world that trump doesn't get elected. A man who once looked at a homeless person and said "He has eight billion dollars more than me", gone bankrupt, sues everyone he can think to sue. And thinks an entire religious group should be outlawed. Take that particular comment, ban all muslims, replace it with Jewish, remind you of someone? In my opinion anyone who votes for, or supports trump is willingly ignorant.

Okay, I'm gonna get unusually personal with this one. You don't know what I do for a living do you? I'll tell you... I help people recover from Chapter 7 bankruptcy. Chapter 7 is a personal bankruptcy that essentially screws over all your creditors. Anyone who ever believed in your word to pay them back for what they lend to you... get's nothing. It is 100% legal, and about 200 people file for Chapter 7 every week in Las Vegas alone. Donald Trump has never filed a Chapter 7 bankruptcy in his entire life.

 

Donald Trump owns over 500 separate business', all under the same flag. He has filed a "corporate" bankruptcy on 4 of those... it really should be stressed as "only" 4 times. This is an amazing record of success, and everything was done according to the law. Yes, the laws apply to Donald Trump too. We live in a litigation society, and you somehow believe that Donald Trump is not entitled to participate in that litigation society... just because you don't like him?

 

You have things a little switched with the Muslim-Jewish issue. Adolf Hitler exterminated over 6 million Jews. It's the Muslims that want to exterminate the Jews this time... not Donald Trump. They keep killing us because we are the ones preventing the Jews from being massacred by Muslims. If you wish to ignore the problem and pretend it doesn't exist... the ignorant one is you.

[Rafay]

So I was doing a bit of maths and it seems that 1074 delegates have been contested for out of 2472. And that means that 1398 are still up for grabs.

 

The Donald needs 764 to clinch the nomination but it seems very unlikely judging by his record. I mean I'm thinking that out of 1398, the max he can win are 600 and Cruz will get 500 so Trump will still be well short of 1237 and Either Rubio or Cruz will win the nomination. Thoughts?

[Lysistrata]

So I was doing a bit of maths and it seems that 1074 delegates have been contested for out of 2472. And that means that 1398 are still up for grabs.

 

The Donald needs 764 to clinch the nomination but it seems very unlikely judging by his record. I mean I'm thinking that out of 1398, the max he can win are 600 and Cruz will get 500 so Trump will still be well short of 1237 and Either Rubio or Cruz will win the nomination. Thoughts?

Things are changing from proportional delegate awards to winner take all. Donald Trump will get the needed delegates unless they start keeping him from winning. I don't see that happening yet.

[Rafay]

Things are changing from proportional delegate awards to winner take all.

 

Hmmm. This is a new and interesting set-up. What if Trump loses Ohio tonight? He and Kasich are basically tied. That'll surely cause some problems going ahead.