http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/apr/15/angela-merkel-agrees-prosecution-comedian-erdogan-poem

 

As Erdogan continues to blackmail Europe, Merkel continues to be a stupid cunt. Now some harmless, innocent guy faces possible legal action because Erdogan is a psychotic, tyrant murderer that can't stand even the slightest criticism, even from a thousand miles away. 

 

Europeans, please, I beg you. Get rid of Merkel and tell Turkey to get fucked. We can't possibly allow such a two faced regime to be a member of NATO or the EU. Such organizations are built on cooperation and trust. Not blackmail. And last I checked, we in this sphere of nations support democracy, not waging literal war on any form of political opposition and killing or silencing both our own people and the citizens of our allies. 

 

This is simply an outrage. The behaviors displayed here by those in power is completely unacceptable. 

Europe is going down the toilet at staggering speed. Free speech is being curtailed in favor of despots and radicals, problems are being ignored in hopes that they will go away by themselves.

 

Brexit is all but a certainty at this point.

Lets not get overly excited. Foreign officials are obliged to ask german government for a permission to sue german citizen. Giving permission merely opens legal route. Still the court is the one to decide whether law was broken or not.

 

I guess that's something you'd expect to happen in a country where law is respected.

Lets not get overly excited. Foreign officials are obliged to ask german government for a permission to sue german citizen. Giving permission merely opens legal route. Still the court is the one to decide whether law was broken or not.

 

I guess that's something you'd expect to happen in a country where law is respected.

^^this

 

I'd rather feel we wouldn't be Europe anymore if we just went up and said "Fuck you".

 

that said, the law Erdogan can use is a dusty one, last used in 1976 (or something), when the Shah of Iran was on a visit to Germany and they needed some legal grounds to edict some student protesters. Unsure on what amount of "punishment" was given to those protesters so it could have been a moot point then already. Its a law about "insulting a friendly foreighn leader", so could even be that a german judge throws out the request first hand anyway

 

basically, diplomatic courtesy is maintained, nothing to strange to begin with.

It's a dumb law. In my state it's illegal to ride a Mary-go-round on Sunday and I would find it completely pathetic to see that law actually used. The fact that Erdogan is demanding this man face legal action while crushing all political opposition at home and blackmailing the EU just tells me there is no diplomatic courtesy to be maintained. 

Historically, I think a fat "fuck you" is actually quite European. Especially when it's a middle eastern dictator we're talking about.

there are unnumeral amounts of "dumb" laws, luckely most if not all are neither used nor even brought up for something.

 

And just saying "fuck you" to Erdogan, and by extention Turkey, won't help the situation one bit, however gratifying you may feel afterwards.

 

You know what they basically granted? They granted Erdogan the ability to use the German Judiciary system, nothing more.

Sort of connected to this - I wrote a full paper (circa 17 pages plus citations) on why Turkey should be kicked from NATO. 

I believe it would help the situation. Turkey is one the last nations we should be showing any support for in this war. What with them supporting ISIS and Al-Nusra. Stroking his ego will help nothing. The fact is, the use of that law is at the discretion of the German government and if Merkel had any respect for human rights, she wouldn't have even responded to such an absurd demand. IDC if the law exists. Like I said, it's illegal to ride a marry-go-round on Sunday in my state. Enforcement of such a stupid law would almost equally offend me.

But it's not even this one incident. This is just the one that's really made me say "Erdogan should just go die in a hole". He's undeserving of having his ego stroked by the west anymore. We shouldn't be trying to appease a tyrannical scum bag like Erdogan.

 

 

them supporting ISIS and Al-Nusra.

 

We've been supporting them too, friendo

I assume we're both American here

 

 

As a whole, Erdogan is a shady leader and Merkel has shown herself to be a tyrant - the German Government is proven to have committed all sorts trespasses against their own people, especially recently. The EU is nothing more than the Western revival of the USSR. 

 

With that being said, you might be interested in looking into the Ergenekon scandal - as far as I know the trials are still ongoing. 

 

them supporting ISIS and Al-Nusra.

 

We've been supporting them too, friendo

I assume we're both American here

 

 

As a whole, Erdogan is a shady leader and Merkel has shown herself to be a tyrant - the German Government is proven to have committed all sorts trespasses against their own people, especially recently. The EU is nothing more than the Western revival of the USSR. 

 

With that being said, you might be interested in looking into the Ergenekon scandal - as far as I know the trials are still ongoing. 

 

Supporting them in what way? By trying to prop up "moderate" rebels that are actually Salafists? Because that's just the incompetence of our leaders not knowing anything about middle eastern politics, religion or culture. 9 of 10 US politicians probably couldn't tell you what Salafism is because they've probably never even heard the word. It's not quite the same as direct, blatant cooperation and supplying of ISIS and Al-Nusra.

 

 

them supporting ISIS and Al-Nusra.

 

We've been supporting them too, friendo

I assume we're both American here

 

 

As a whole, Erdogan is a shady leader and Merkel has shown herself to be a tyrant - the German Government is proven to have committed all sorts trespasses against their own people, especially recently. The EU is nothing more than the Western revival of the USSR. 

 

With that being said, you might be interested in looking into the Ergenekon scandal - as far as I know the trials are still ongoing. 

 

Supporting them in what way? By trying to prop up "moderate" rebels that are actually Salafists? Because that's just the incompetence of our leaders not knowing anything about middle eastern politics, religion or culture. 9 of 10 US politicians probably couldn't tell you what Salafism is because they've probably never even heard the word. It's not quite the same as direct, blatant cooperation and supplying of ISIS and Al-Nusra.

 

 

A few ways. 

Firstly, our Government has been directly involved in arming and training "moderate" rebels - a considerable amount then defected to Al-Nusra/ISIS. At the same time, the ones who stayed with our backing were easy targets. IE we basically set up a straw man. 

Al-Nusra has actually worked in direct cooperation with some of the "moderates" that we've been supporting. 

 

Secondly, our Government is staunch ally of Turkey - this is likely due to the deep ties that we have with them going back to the days of the founding of the Counter-Guerilla (google it). Turkey has been directly complacent and/or cooperative with ISIS operations in Northern Syria and Iraq, as well as coordinating with Iran against Kurdish factions therein, in direct violation of the policies we'd levied against them. 

 

Thirdly, our Government has directly acted with the goal of impeding the success of the Russo-Syrian coalition. ie warning oil tankers "hey clear out we're going to bomb you in an hour," dropping bombs on abandoned lots and buildings in order to say that we're bombing ISIS positions, etc.

Yes, I already mentioned that. The US goal in all of this the removal of Assad. We've been actively pursuing that since before the war broke out and actually had a hand in starting the war. That's why we're supporting rebels that turn out to be Salafists, because Assad is our primary objective, not ISIS. 

However, my point is that we aren't directly supporting ISIS/AN. Turkey is.

the enemy of your enemy isn't necesairly your friend...

It's a dumb law. In my state it's illegal to ride a Mary-go-round on Sunday and I would find it completely pathetic to see that law actually used. The fact that Erdogan is demanding this man face legal action while crushing all political opposition at home and blackmailing the EU just tells me there is no diplomatic courtesy to be maintained. 

Historically, I think a fat "fuck you" is actually quite European. Especially when it's a middle eastern dictator we're talking about.

Since when did Europe start conducting it's foreign policy based on democracy, free speech and human rights? Are we in a different movie here or on Earth?

 

Foreign policy is always conducted based on self-interest, everything else is just sugar-coating. Qaddafi was a BFF when he was gonna sell cheap oil, human rights didnt matter than did they? or when Saddam gassed the Kurds, it didnt matter did it because he was the stooge to check Iran. Hell, everyone was falling over themselves trying to sell arms to him. 

 

It's currently in Europe's self interest to deal with Turkey and vice versa, or you know, Turkey can just call it quits and get rid of the burden it has mostly shouldered itself, the support being given is peanuts regarding the refugees, let em all cross, that's all they prefer too.

 

There is no such word as 'blackmail' in diplomacy, it's called leverage.  NATO went in on the whole regime change thing and anyone who would pick arm against Assad was a good guy, hell, even if it would be OBL, he'd get trained and armed, after all, his organisation did get the resources now didnt it. But the problem is the collateral damage is falling on Turkley, why should Turkey alone shoulder the burden? You think when African countries get shit end of the trade deals, do they whine about being 'blackmailed', sure the people do, but hey, it's all leverage then too isnt it. 

 

Turkey would'nt lift a finger if it didnt have a nod from US and/or NATO to do whatever that it is doing. Their entire defense structure is based on NATO infrastructure, they would'nt risk all that over some rag tag armed groups. Erdogan might sound bit of a loony but is a smart guy overall, I mean he's done more for Turkey's economy than anyone else or any European leader has done for their country's economy in last decade. 

 

tl;dr, kettle, pot, etc.

 

 

them supporting ISIS and Al-Nusra.

 

We've been supporting them too, friendo

I assume we're both American here

 

 

As a whole, Erdogan is a shady leader and Merkel has shown herself to be a tyrant - the German Government is proven to have committed all sorts trespasses against their own people, especially recently. The EU is nothing more than the Western revival of the USSR. 

 

With that being said, you might be interested in looking into the Ergenekon scandal - as far as I know the trials are still ongoing. 

 

Supporting them in what way? By trying to prop up "moderate" rebels that are actually Salafists? Because that's just the incompetence of our leaders not knowing anything about middle eastern politics, religion or culture. 9 of 10 US politicians probably couldn't tell you what Salafism is because they've probably never even heard the word. It's not quite the same as direct, blatant cooperation and supplying of ISIS and Al-Nusra.

 

To be honest, most muslims wouldnt even be able to tell you what salafism is. It's bit of an alien ideology to most and is specific to a v. particular region. It's in my opinion and view, more of a reactionary movement that has spread out of it's particular region aided by various world powers to pursue whatever interests that required pawns, Sovient invasion of Afghanistan, regime change in Libya, Syria, the whole debacle of Iraq etc. My parents would'nt even know what we're talking about here, I know because 'internet o/ . 

To make a few clarifications; 

1) This is a criminal offense, not civil as some posters have indicated

2) The decision Merkel has made is to allow the Prosecutor to make the decision. Effectively the Chancellor can block prosecution, but cannot force it. This is a power that apparently the Chancellor's office did not even know that they had until this issue arose, so outdated and unknown about is this law. 

3) Just because the Prosecutor is allowed to investigate does not mean that there will be a trial or a conviction. 

 

Now personally I would love to see two fingers to Erdogan, and Merkel to reject this. However I cannot for definite say that in her shoes I would have acted differently. Yes there is a defense of free speech on the one hand, but on the other hand because of the diplomatic consequences the Chancellor's decisions has an impact on many people's lives. Given the choice between letting a prosecutor investigate on one hand, and abandoning the hard negotiated deal to stop the deaths in the Agean and give Europe a chance to screen those arriving to claim Asylum, which do you choose? If you choose wrong people die. Many many people die. 

The deal is shit to begin with, so I see little reason why we should give additional concessions to Turkey.

The deal is shit to begin with, so I see little reason why we should give additional concessions to Turkey.

You're outsourcing a problem for cheap, what more do you want?

My problem is that this so-called solution solves nothing, for the following two reasons:

1. It's a 1 for 1 deal, we'll still have to take immigrants from that region. Anything short of a 1 for 0 is a bad agreement.
2. Turkish citizens will no longer require a visa from June. Everyone knows that there is a flourishing black market for forged passports there, therefore terrorists will have even less trouble getting into Europe in the future

1) asylum is asylum, its one of the basics of europe, deal with it >_> Wanna give up all them farmer subsidy?

2) the visa thing was going to happen in september-october, they just "sweetend" the deal with making it happen before the summer holiday period

1) asylum is asylum, its one of the basics of europe, deal with it >_> Wanna give up all them farmer subsidy?

2) the visa thing was going to happen in september-october, they just "sweetend" the deal with making it happen before the summer holiday period

 

1, Asylum is for real refugees, which these people are clearly not. Also a convention established in 1957 is obviously not suited to deal with issues of a globalized world. But since you hold European values in such high regard (among them democracy I presume) why don't we ask the people whether they want to take in these so-called refugees? Around 80% in the CEE region say no way, and I'd be very curious about Western EU responses as well.

 

2, The visa thing is still a stupid idea and it's indifferent whether it happens in September/October or sooner, because it happens either way.

1) most via Turkey now are refugees, Italy gets the economical immigrants

 

and I can go partway in saying that "first nation in safety" should be the stopgap from when a refugee becomes an immigrant if (s)he goes further. Same time the fact of overcrowding Turkey shouldn't be forgotten (and any other middle eastern nation like Jordan for instance).

 

as for democracy, I am actually more for beaurocracy and for strict majority's when changes are demanded, partly comes from the mandatory elections we have I guess, I don't care if 55% wants something if that 55% is only of the 40% of the entire population that bothered to come and vote, screw the vocal minority, shouting hardly ever makes one right. And while I undoubtfully will pull my familty before anyone else, I am far from nationalistic to want a "us vs them" story some people fall into way to easy

 

2) yeah it will happen anyway, so complain about it itself but not about the timing

There would be alternatives to stranding the immigrants in Turkey, Australia for example does an exemplary job in dealing with unwanted immigration. Europe could just as easily establish refugee camps in far-away third countries and offer a safe place to those that really do seek shelter there. Those that do not take the deal are not really refugees, but rather economic migrants and we should not be under any sort of obligation to them.

 

On other note, I do not like the term "economic migrant", because those also include foreign white collar expats that greatly contribute to any country's GDP and "economic migration" of this sort should not be hindered but rather encouraged. Maybe "fortune seekers" would be a better term to use here.

 

As for the democracy thing, that's how things work, like it or not. If there is an open voting and you don't bother showing up to place your ballot, then that means you don't have an opinion, or you just don't care. The neutrality means that you have no dog in the fight and others will (and should) decide the question at hand.

Wait, Turkey isn't a third world country to the EU to stash our refugees now? Darn it , quick, lets send them to the Congo, I hear the eastern part is having a population defecit!

 

Well your "economic migrant" may take away high paying jobs aswell, gonna put a quota on that perhaps? Speaking of such "economic migrants", or rather "people who do the job we don't like doing", we took in alot of Italians to work in the coal and steel industry in the '60s and '70s, thusfar this has given us 1 decendant who became our first gay prime minister. How odd for an italian person to be both gay and a socialist, clearly we got the filfth of Italy send to us!

 

I don't mind regulations for said "fortune seekers", which strangly enough, the rules are present alread! SHOCK! Most people here that are granted asylum may have the "fortune seeker" tag to them, but they firstly have the "doesn't want to be killed at previous location" tag, which is why they get asylum in the first place.

 

and I see the voting as, when change => +50% of vote eligible people. If you want change but can't get half the country behind it, your loss Yes I am conservative, in the latin meaning

Wait, Turkey isn't a third world country to the EU to stash our refugees now? Darn it , quick, lets send them to the Congo, I hear the eastern part is having a population defecit!

If the EU pays for the upkeep camps, it don't matter where they are. Might as well be on the Moon - come to think of it, that's not that bad of an idea

 

 

  

Well your "economic migrant" may take away high paying jobs aswell, gonna put a quota on that perhaps? Speaking of such "economic migrants", or rather "people who do the job we don't like doing", we took in alot of Italians to work in the coal and steel industry in the '60s and '70s, thusfar this has given us 1 decendant who became our first gay prime minister. How odd for an italian person to be both gay and a socialist, clearly we got the filfth of Italy send to us!

I don't see your point, seeing as I'm all for the migration of qualified individuals, the more the merrier! There is a global shortage of qualified experts in many fields, so what would I want to put a cap on them? And you may have a shortage of unqualified workforce, but we sure don't, and it's an increasing problem to give these people at least some kind of work. But it's a moot point anyway, because in few decades automation will reach a level where practically all physical blue collar jobs will be done by robots

 

  

I don't mind regulations for said "fortune seekers", which strangly enough, the rules are present alread! SHOCK! Most people here that are granted asylum may have the "fortune seeker" tag to them, but they firstly have the "doesn't want to be killed at previous location" tag, which is why they get asylum in the first place.

Well, it clearly doesn't work, because I don't see fortune seekers being returned to their home countries by the hundreds of thousands. Let me know when that starts happening.

 

 

 

and I see the voting as, when change => +50% of vote eligible people. If you want change but can't get half the country behind it, your loss Yes I am conservative, in the latin meaning

Waiting for a true majority vote to get things done is a sure way to not get things done at all. Just because some people are apathetic/CBA/forgetful/etc. shit still needs to get done. Autocracy is not a good solution, so this is the next best thing.

Edited April 20, 201610 yr by ccabal86