119 replies to this topic

[ccabal86]

I was going to fight the first 3/4 of your post by pointing at how things were done in the U.S. for the last 8 years but then came your last two sentences. This is almost always how any political discussion goes and it's why most people don't like discussing politics. You will always have two (or more) sides firmly entrenched in their opinions and arguing about it with very little common ground in between.

 

I think this here is the biggest problem in the West nowdays, and not just the US, but also Europe in a slightly more plural way.

 

As an outsider, I can empathize with both sides here, because frankly there are some very valid argumens from both directions. However the onus to do some deep thinking here is NOT on the Rebublicans, but the Democrats. If everything was so great under Obama, how did you lose the House, Senate and the Presidency? For this to happen, you MUST have done something wrong. Pointing fingers at Trump will not help you, he's a known egomaniac and loose cannon, but it will not get you anywhere.

 

You should instead look at why have you alienated your voters. Is it some key politicians they don't like? Is it some thing the Obama Administration did or didn't do? Maybe some of the ideologies you're assosicated with go against common sense? Maybe some actions make you look hypocritical? Some groups you are associated with are too divisive? Maybe you shouldn't be promoting identity politics, as it's inherently divisive? JUST DO SOME THINKING DAMMIT.

 

Unfortunately, I don't see this happening, you are playing the victim card, like so many of the identity groups you are associated with. It's a losing hand.

[Sister Midnight]

I was going to fight the first 3/4 of your post by pointing at how things were done in the U.S. for the last 8 years but then came your last two sentences. This is almost always how any political discussion goes and it's why most people don't like discussing politics. You will always have two (or more) sides firmly entrenched in their opinions and arguing about it with very little common ground in between.

 
I think this here is the biggest problem in the West nowdays, and not just the US, but also Europe in a slightly more plural way.
 
As an outsider, I can empathize with both sides here, because frankly there are some very valid argumens from both directions. However the onus to do some deep thinking here is NOT on the Rebublicans, but the Democrats. If everything was so great under Obama, how did you lose the House, Senate and the Presidency? For this to happen, you MUST have done something wrong. Pointing fingers at Trump will not help you, he's a known egomaniac and loose cannon, but it will not get you anywhere.
 
You should instead look at why have you alienated your voters. Is it some key politicians they don't like? Is it some thing the Obama Administration did or didn't do? Maybe some of the ideologies you're assosicated with go against common sense? Maybe some actions make you look hypocritical? Some groups you are associated with are too divisive? Maybe you shouldn't be promoting identity politics, as it's inherently divisive? JUST DO SOME THINKING DAMMIT.
 
Unfortunately, I don't see this happening, you are playing the victim card, like so many of the identity groups you are associated with. It's a losing hand.

You make some valid points on which to ponder.

[onbekende]

I wouldn't call every political debate a defined stalement into opposing trenches, but sure alot move into them

 

 

I really like the idea of having a President that walks into the White House and feels like he's slumming it. I'm not pandering anything... we literally did it. Instead of having Clinton dishing out 4 more years of Obama stagnation and serving us up a squishy Supreme Court... or having a Cruz, Kasich, or Rubio to timidly hold the line... we actually have a Donald Trump that has the sack to take a flamethrower to every level of Constitutional erosion, dithering on the world stage, and unhindered corruption.

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Issue is, Trump isn't a conservative. You elected the wrong crowd to "get back to the good old days" (not withstanding that I got no clue what you would and wouldn't like about those "good old days" ).
 
As for your Constitution, what exactly did Obama/Dems disregard there? Perhaps get out all te articles and ammendments and list up the numbers they "eroded away".
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California doesn't elect our President. Never in our history has a combined popular vote elected a US President, so really it doesn't make any sense to even total them all up... unless of course you want to point at it and say "See?". Donald Trump won the popular vote in 30 States and tallied up over 270 Electoral votes... that is what elects our Presidents. People that don't like it can always try to change it... and I really want them to waste all their time trying to do that.

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 Sure California shouldn't vote for your President, but you folks have both swing-states for the nitty-gritty electoral college and entrenched-states where such large swats of the population votes either way that nobody bothers anymore. Just don't come with "won popular vote in x states and won electoral college" when the total popular vote is against him. Thats muddling the line what a popular vote is.

 

I understand there should be some "baseline" in electoral college votes, but you got to look at this and think that some folks are severly over/under represented. 3x over/under is kinda steep. Not even Belgium manages that and we got wonky election rules.

 

 

 

boi Obama got into office and killed every last damn terrorist Bush couldn't "find"

You can't win a global war on body count. Something Bush and Obama came to realize at different times.

 

 
Actually a global war is all about killing everyone of the opposition. There hasn't been a global war for over 70 years! Why? I'd like to think that "words before actions" is a big deal in that accomplishment. I'd like to keep that from being the case.
 
 
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Next on the list of Reps undoing anything Obama's name is on, sane or not. Seems reps don't mind the truely mentally disabled to have guns, these are people who have been thruw some hoops to actually be marked as mentally disabled (not just ill), people who for instance have to have a representative to oversee their wellbeing and will.
 
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You people need some less patriotism I feel. It is basically nationalism in its own right already and you folks swing it in anybody's face that gets deemed a nusance. One of the biggest social taboo's in the US is being called unpatriotic. Could basically make it a blackmail favorite.
Sure we like to wave our flag around aswell, know when? When some belgian person/team is doing well in an international sport competition. Otherwise we just bask in the ridiculousness that is Belgium, like the world record of forming a government after an election >_>

[DeathMerchant]

Answering this while I'm on my phone so doing multi quotes is a little hard. So this is both to SM and onbekende.

After 9/11, the US began a global war on terror. Instead of focusing on deterring Islamists from becoming terrorists in the first place, diplomacy, and proper nation building. We moved straight to kill lists using special operations and drone strikes. This began with Bush and was escalated under Obama.

From all the years I have spent studying and analyzing warfare, everything from ancient Rome to modern day, there is always a common theme for victory. You cannot win a war by relying on dead enemy forces. You win a war by destroying the enemies ability to fight and wage war back at you. Kill counts have their place, but cannot be the sole premise of a long term strategy.

[onbekende]

You exhaust their will, true. Giving them fuel in terms of mindless actions =/= exhausting their supply of rhetoric. Drone strikes are the assassinations of old.

 

 

My hope that no (inter)national grand scale disaster happens also got doubled up, namely what will POTUS do when the spotlights are OFF him for extended (read 24h)? go nuclear? >_>

[Lysistrata]

As for your Constitution, what exactly did Obama/Dems disregard there? Perhaps get out all te articles and ammendments and list up the numbers they "eroded away".

It would be off topic to discuss Obama here, but let's start with the low hanging fruit.

Where in the US Constitution is Congress given the power to pass a law that requires US citizens to purchase a product?

[onbekende]

I shall forgo the "where does it say that it doesn't alow congress to do so" and go with:

 

You indeed pay for "a product", but much more for "a service", a service defined to better the general well-being of the nation and its citizens. A well-being not just physically or mentally (health) but also a well-being in terms of economics (both personal as nationwide). Your argument can also be applied to tons of government funded nationwide programs, products and services. Basically all government expenditures are meant to grow the nation and its society, be it from simple infrastructure to fundamental defences in term of police/army/firefighters.

 

The debate isn't so much about "Does the Constitution (dis)allow this", but more about "Should we (US gov) have such a service". This is a basic ideology/filosophy debate that any nation who has or hasn't got national healtcare has to tackle when transitioning between the "has" and "hasn't" (either way). Also don't come with its conservative vs socialists, it is liberals vs socialists. Conservatives are people who just don't want chance, be it for better or worse.

[Lysistrata]

The debate isn't so much about "Does the Constitution (dis)allow this", but more about "Should we (US gov) have such a service".

That is the entire debate. The US Constitution is an agreement between the States and the Federal Government. It defines the responsibilities of the Federal Government, and goes into great detail what the Federal Government specifically cannot do. Everything else that is not addressed in the Constitution is reserved to the States.

 

By your logic, we could have a Federal Government that believes the Police are not capable of sufficient protection of the US citizens, and it's just getting too damn expensive to hire all these cops... so it is now required by law for every citizen to purchase their own handgun, or suffer a monetary penalty. Now Texas may love the shit out of this law, but people in California may not like the idea of all those guns on the streets. The price of guns would skyrocket, because everyone is now required to buy them. Sounds really stupid when you apply the same logic to a different product.

 

Every State has their own Governments and are quite capable of doing things the way they want them done without unconstitutional acts of the Federal Government doing what they have never been given the power to do.

[Sister Midnight]

No individual was forced to buy a product. There was a fine for not having insurance, a penalty, and it wasn't a very high fine at that, relatively speaking.

As two self-employed people, hubby and I were denied ANY commercial insurance coverage until the ACA came because of a pre-existing condition. I paid more money to have Medicaid, which no one accepted and only covered me for hospitalization within my home state, than I paid for ACA. I had to ask my providers to allow me to pay on a sliding scale - some people find that to be a rather humiliating and humbling experience. Am I to be without health coverage again? I'm a member of the middle class, yet one uninsured catastrophe could ruin me financially. I am not a rarity, only the very wealthy could afford catastrophic illness without insurance.

Does Don care about me and my well being? Has he shown any intent to protect the MILLIONS of Americans who are relying on ACA from financial ruin in the event of catastrophic illness? I haven't seen any sign he plans to. But he uses the "despised" executive order to unconstitutionally revoke a half million visas that have already been in existence to "protect" us from a half million people who were already vetted, approved, and given visas, for what purpose?

[Lysistrata]

No individual was forced to buy a product. There was a fine for not having insurance, a penalty, and it wasn't a very high fine at that, relatively speaking.

Every individual is forced to buy health insurance, or pay a penalty at income tax time under the ACA. The penalty for 2017 is $695 for each adult and $347.50 for each child, or $2,085 per family. It increases every year, and the architects of this pile of stench say the penalties need to be much higher for it to continue to be solvent. Even when they pay the penalty they still get nothing from the lost cash that the IRS steals... they still have to go to that rip-off website and pay for that garbage insurance, that no one can afford to use.

 

We have 4 adult children, all over 26 FYI... and we wouldn't pay for their insurance if we could, because we raised them to be responsible adults to begin with... but they all complain about this bullshit. I am personally covered by my wife's insurance from her work. It's great insurance and always has been, but since the ACA came into effect, we lost our prescription coverage and our deductible has tripled. Thank you very much.

 

In short, it's not the job of the Federal Government to get involved in the healthcare business, and the people that convinced you that anything in the universe is "fair" did you, and everyone else, a great disservice. Nothing is fair anywhere. The people crying that it's not fair are the ones that don't have something, and the only way they can get it is by forcing someone to give it to them, or the charity of those that have it.

 

As for Donald Trump... he cares much more about you than you give him credit for. You should listen to what he says. He did promise to destroy ISIS, and he did say that he would not let anyone know how he would do it beforehand. The travel between these nations are being cut in preparation for military operations to destroy terrorists... and these Judges need to be reminded that we have been at war for 15 years. We don't want anyone to be able to come here, from there. Democrats never think ahead about anything, just about what makes them feel good right now.

[onbekende]

 

As for Donald Trump... he cares much more about you than you give him credit for. You should listen to what he says. He did promise to destroy ISIS, and he did say that he would not let anyone know how he would do it beforehand. The travel between these nations are being cut in preparation for military operations to destroy terrorists... and these Judges need to be reminded that we have been at war for 15 years. We don't want anyone to be able to come here, from there. Democrats never think ahead about anything, just about what makes them feel good right now.

 

 

He is having the Pentagon draft up plans to destroy ISIS, this is not his plan, it will be the Pentagon's.

 

You folks might have heared abou the Louvre attack yesterday. All indications precently point to an Egyptian national who got a tourist visa at the French embassy in the United Arab Emirates. Neither of these 2 nations has had a travel ban issued by your dear POTUS. Heck even more ironic about it is that it was stopped because the assailend went full Rambo and considered it a good idea to take out the armed and trained army personal first (a first I might ask!). The only time you will completely keep terrorists from entering the US is when ALL travel is revoked. ALL!

 

As for the judges, I will just echo SM's sentiment. You don't just revoke visa's or greencards previously issued without your sacred "due process", enjoy that mess-up if you start fiddling with that.

[onbekende]

That is the entire debate. The US Constitution is an agreement between the States and the Federal Government. It defines the responsibilities of the Federal Government, and goes into great detail what the Federal Government specifically cannot do. Everything else that is not addressed in the Constitution is reserved to the States.

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So only constitution mandated responsibilities are allowed to be done by the Federal Government? Nothing new even if the elections make this plausible? Again both with allowing and disallowing. If only an ammendment is allowed to issue further Federal Government programs/laws, you folks might get even more bogged down in Federal<=>lower shenanigans then even Belgium is, enjoy?
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By your logic, we could have a Federal Government that believes the Police are not capable of sufficient protection of the US citizens, and it's just getting too damn expensive to hire all these cops... so it is now required by law for every citizen to purchase their own handgun, or suffer a monetary penalty. Now Texas may love the shit out of this law, but people in California may not like the idea of all those guns on the streets. The price of guns would skyrocket, because everyone is now required to buy them. Sounds really stupid when you apply the same logic to a different product.

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Last I heared your POTUS is already claiming some Federal bureau's are incapable (for various reasons) to fulfill their role. Your analogy works up until you remember that the product you wish to push (guns) isn't helping the problem (lack of lawenforcement) to be negated. (1) (2)

 

What was tried, to follow your analogy somewhat, was to indeed help lesser states in aiding with their healthcare plans and situation, by streamlining and upscaling the actual situation so efficiency and money saving methods could be employed. Now is/was the law implemented half-hazardly? Definatly. But which isn't? And what was the cause of this? All questions you have to ask, not just about ACA but about any law passed and its (hopefully) evaluation after x years.

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Every State has their own Governments and are quite capable of doing things the way they want them done without unconstitutional acts of the Federal Government doing what they have never been given the power to do.

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Why have a UNITED States when every state can do its thing then? The folks of old who started the USA wished for cooperation and mutual benefit. Could you agree to the sentiment that a national healthcare can be beneficial not just on a personal level but also on a state and national one? barring costs for a moment.

[Sister Midnight]

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Why have a UNITED States when every state can do its thing then? The folks of old who started the USA wished for cooperation and mutual benefit. Could you agree to the sentiment that a national healthcare can be beneficial not just on a personal level but also on a state and national one? barring costs for a moment.

Some Americans, particularly certain interest groups, are all about Rugged Inividualism and states' rights when it suits them, but are all about the Federal government when it suits them. it is a tricky balance in general and it becomes even harder when you look at things as an us vs. them mentality.

For decades I have noted unhappilyi how limited people are in that they just don't see that everyone matters and everything is related. If one person is diminished, we are all effected by that person's diminishment. To be more concrete, if you cut down a tree it looks like it has no impact on the entire planet, but forgetting the impact upon local wildlife and agriculture, the loss of that tree means a little less oxygen is being produced. It may not matter, but it touches us all, whether we see it, or not. Which brings me back to that "No Man is an Island" poem. We are all connected, but few people think of that often. Of course we should look upon good healthcare as a necessity for all and remember that we all benefit from it.

[Lysistrata]

He is having the Pentagon draft up plans to destroy ISIS, this is not his plan, it will be the Pentagon's.

Oh I see how this works... so if things go wrong, will it be the Pentagon's fault? Egypt has an established government where anyone coming from there can be "extremely" vetted. "You folks" in the EU have your own problems with your open borders and socialist policies. There are many people in the UK that have had enough of those policies, and are doing something about it. The Republicans here in the USA are fighting tirelessly every single day to ensure we never make those same mistakes. We have courts here to sort out everything about those Visas and Green Cards, we'll work it all out.

So only constitution mandated responsibilities are allowed to be done by the Federal Government?

If you ask me... yes. We have Judges that think that because they are a judge, they must make a ruling. We need judges that read the Constitution, and say "Sorry Legislative Branch... Sorry Executive Branch... This issue is none of your business, It's a State issue"... and just throw it out. The people in New York may feel better with stronger laws, where people in Montana do not. One size does not fit all. We may be the United States, but we are very different in the way we live. It's a suicide pact to attempt to make this all one big country under the same laws in every state. The more they try to do that, the more divided we become.

[Sister Midnight]

One thing Don has done for me, is I have gotten some new patients seeking help in coping with the profound anxiety, helpless, and hopeless feelings they are experiencing about him. I am not joking about this. He's actually increased my income, so I guess I can say I've gotten financial gain because of him.

However, this made me smile: http://www.someecards.com/life/digital-life/donald-trump-trump-therapy-comic-funny/

[Lysistrata]

One thing Don has done for me, is I have gotten some new patients seeking help in coping with the profound anxiety, helpless, and hopeless feelings they are experiencing about him. I am not joking about this. He's actually increased my income, so I guess I can say I've gotten financial gain because of him.

However, this made me smile: http://www.someecards.com/life/digital-life/donald-trump-trump-therapy-comic-funny/

I didn't know you were a therapist! No wonder you like ObamaCare! It's made it so much easier to get paid!!! You could never rely on those nutcases to ever pay you, let alone keep a job. Scoop in the Benjamin's while you slap these snowflakes around and tell'em to man up. Write up a prescription for John Wayne movies and just Xerox a couple hundred and you're set. Congrats!

[Sister Midnight]

[

]
I didn't know you were a therapist! No wonder you like ObamaCare! It's made it so much easier to get paid!!! You could never rely on those nutcases to ever pay you, let alone keep a job. Scoop in the Benjamin's while you slap these snowflakes around and tell'em to man up. Write up a prescription for John Wayne movies and just Xerox a couple hundred and you're set. Congrats!

Figures you call anyone in therapy is a "nutcase." You are well aware of my career as a clinical social worker, I've posted about in conversations with you more than once. You are either pretending to be ignorant, or you have ZERO comprehension of what mental healthcare is about.

Just to clarify to anyone unfamiliar with how things work and/or who doesn't really get what Listeria is trying to do, I don't accept insurance. I work on a sliding scale, based on what my patients say they are able to pay. I accept cash and checks and if my patients have out network coverage they get reimbursed. My office is in one of the wealthiest towns in the country and I help both rich and poor people.

In my state Obama care IS regular insurance. I have the exact same brand of insurance as my friends who work for corporations, with coverage that is comparable to theirs. That is Obamacare.

Listeria, your disrespectful attitude and sarcasm is unacceptable and yet another indicator of how terrified you feel when dealing with opinions and facts that don't align with your personal beliefs. I keep hoping you aren't one of those special little snowflakes who need "alternate facts" in order to deal with people and ideas you find hard to accept.

Addendum: be forewarned, I probably won't bother looking at Listeria's posts for a while as I find his insults tiresome.

[onbekende]

Oh I see how this works... so if things go wrong, will it be the Pentagon's fault? Egypt has an established government where anyone coming from there can be "extremely" vetted. "You folks" in the EU have your own problems with your open borders and socialist policies. There are many people in the UK that have had enough of those policies, and are doing something about it. The Republicans here in the USA are fighting tirelessly every single day to ensure we never make those same mistakes. We have courts here to sort out everything about those Visas and Green Cards, we'll work it all out.

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No, "this works" like a reply cause 1) He said he had a plan => 2) He drafts the Pentagon to make a plan. => 3) He lied?

 

our problems are mostly our own indeed, doesn't mean you can't be worried if our solutions to these problems mean you lose an ally in this world. I would be worried if I believe half the news the american public hears about Europe.

 

UK is already fractured, you had the same lines as the USA, small rural vs large cities. Part of the nation pro-Brexit (England), part of the nation anti-Brexit (Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland). But what is perhaps the biggest analogy is the use of "alternative facts" and "scare tactics" by either side. Coupled with a black/white vote which meant no nuance could be given, you indeed get a radical solution to a complex issue.

 

As for your courts, I heared they did the first "steps" to sort it out >_>
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If you ask me... yes. We have Judges that think that because they are a judge, they must make a ruling. We need judges that read the Constitution, and say "Sorry Legislative Branch... Sorry Executive Branch... This issue is none of your business, It's a State issue"... and just throw it out. The people in New York may feel better with stronger laws, where people in Montana do not. One size does not fit all. We may be the United States, but we are very different in the way we live. It's a suicide pact to attempt to make this all one big country under the same laws in every state. The more they try to do that, the more divided we become.

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- We must not make overreaching statements or judgements about policies in which the issuer has no clear oversight nor foundation to do them.

 

- Bans 7 nationalities from entering, regardless of underlying facts.

 

And if you folks can't live under common laws, why are you folks still a nation? Heck with that notion, the EU is a better model then the USA model then >_>
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I didn't know you were a therapist! No wonder you like ObamaCare! It's made it so much easier to get paid!!! You could never rely on those nutcases to ever pay you, let alone keep a job. Scoop in the Benjamin's while you slap these snowflakes around and tell'em to man up. Write up a prescription for John Wayne movies and just Xerox a couple hundred and you're set. Congrats!

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aaa "snowflakes", another general term thrown around by anyone who is angry when they get called out. Thusfar most "snowflakes" have been the people who feel the need to use that term the moment they need to prove their stance.

[Lysistrata]

You guys need to develop a sense of humor. I'm a deliriously happy person, and I do try to pass that on to anyone I come in contact with. I don't let things get me down... I make fun out of things as much as I can. So please, if you can't see the sarcasm and laugh at yourself just a little... at least take what I say with a grain of salt. I apologize for my offense.

 

Listeria is a bacteria... Lysistrata is an ancient Greek comedy. Was that a mistake? or is that your way of making a joke? If so, I get it, and that's okay. You can do better though! Touche'

 

You are correct about me and mental illness. I don't have much respect for the profession, or anyone that isn't playing with a full deck. It's the constant desire to understand the deranged, and fix the lunatic that I can't tolerate. The mentally soft are accommodated and coddled in your world, where in the real world they should have been eaten alive a long time ago. Allowing them to walk the streets is as much a crime as the time bomb ticking in their brains. You should do everyone a favor and just hit them with a shot of Propofol as they step in your office and put them down. Mark the cause of death as "Late Term Abortion" and you're covered. You have your PhD's, your Social Justice Lawyers, and all your liberal Judges to just nod their empty heads and say... "yep... they needed it".

[onbekende]

I am full of sarcasm, hence I don't do long alinea's Also it is touché, keep up with the good spelling >_>

 

That said, any person willing to believe in a god should be thrown of a cliff, cause we all know the faithfull can fly.

 

wait was that sarcasm?