In an effort not to hijack the Pokémon Mafia game thread with this discussion, I am deciding to give this topic it's own thread here. I think it might be a good idea for us to come up with a mafia "best practices" list of sorts that we expect all players to abide by in our mafia games.

 

There is nothing more frustrating to active players or mods than watching players sign up for games only to largely go MIA for the duration of the game.

This point was raised again in the Pokémon game thread and it is one that we have sort of been discussing off and on over the last year:

 

 

Just to be clear this isn't targeting anybody in particular or even this game in particular, it's a general statement for playing mafia as a whole. I honestly don't get how lurking, doing absolutely nothing but the bare minimum and baselessly pointing fingers when you actually do post, makes people 'more likely town'. If you refuse to play this game properly and only post minimally with absolute zero effort, then I don't see how you qualify more as town than as scum. I think it was pretty clear why TW in particular made this minimal post rule: so people actually play this game. If you honestly only think to do the bare minimum every single in game day, than why even bother playing at all. It's lazy, it's selfish and it's ultimately detrimental to town more than to scum. I agree with the sentiment that if we don't want this to be the standard every single game, we need to either vote off Rafay every D1 or mods need to stop letting him play in their games. What's stopping all of us just do to the same? Post 3 times with no contribution what so ever, people think you're 'more likely town', mafia probably wins most of the times, but at least you made it to the next day. Repeat and profit, whatever that looks like. 

 

Sorry for the rant, but this is honestly getting ridiculous 

 

I concocted the "3-Post Active Participation Rule" several games ago as a way to hopefully combat this issue and it has helped but only marginally. The minimum post requirement of 3 posts was my way of attempting to force participants to actually participate (a crazy idea I know) while simultaneously not burdening them too much with a large daily post requirement. Perhaps the 3 post minimum was set too low though. One would think that if someone signs up to play a mafia game that they would actually play the mafia game. This is not to discount the validity of anyone's individual playstyle per se as each player clearly has their own style. But the question is begged -- why sign up to play if you aren't going to actually play the game? How are you possibly having fun playing that way? It's not really fair to everyone who is actively playing the game that they get lynched/killed for actively contributing when there are players who are intentionally left alive or forgotten just because they post once every 6-7 days. It is also unfair to the game mods who spend a lot of time setting up and running a game that they think people will enjoy only to watch several players barely contribute to the end product. 

 

Imagine how great these games would be if 15 people signed up for a game and all 15 people actively participated. There would never be any more mafia team discussions of "let's kill this one person because they are clearly active and leading the town" or any town discussions of "let's lynch this person because he is a lurker and even if he's a townie he isn't helpful and won't help when needed".

 

How do we as a mafia community want to handle this moving forward? Should there be stricter post requirements? Should we do something else? Any suggestions?

 

even if there is a stricter post count, it doesn't mean they are gonna be helpful and wont just lurk.  one could still just lurk, not contribute anything, and just throw around meaningless votes or posts.  the only way to solve the issue is to restrict players who dont actually play from playing.  I think it would be on the mods.  Maybe either at the mods discretion to not allow them to play, or perhaps have the mod replace them if they continue to play like that.  its not fair to people who actually make an effort in the games 

In a certain sense, there is little difference between the inactive vs the fluffer vs the spammer vs the jellyfish.
So minimum post counts aren't the answer although they do provide an expectation of what the absolute minimum could be.
 
I'd like to keep the mafia community open and invite anyone to try it out.  If we twist everyone's arm to join in a game, it would be tough to get two dozen players so I don't want to discourage players from starting.  Real life time availability fluctuates and I'm OK with participation levels fluctuating even within a game.  I'm personally currently at one of those periods where work is interfering with my game-playing.  
 
But here are some ideas:

• Create a series of "newbie" games that players must complete before they can join the bigger themed games.  I think mafiascum.net has this sort of system.
• Tell the scum they can only night-kill from the bottom half of players sorted by participation for the first few game days.
• Set up a rating system where players can rate each other after each game and have certain games require a minimum rating.
• Systematize the "lynch the inactives" style of play.  Self-policing within the games sort of works.  I generally play this way it and makes the end-game better when the inactives have been eliminated.

Fluctuating activity levels are fine. Of course things can come up at any time for any person and hinder their ability to participate here. It's not those things that anyone takes issue with. It's the people who make it their M.O. to only play this way that are the issue. I'm certainly not advocating to keep anyone from playing. I want everyone to play but if you sign up to play the game you need to actually play the game. If your activity level fluctuates that drastically in the middle of a game you need to ask for a replacement. Don't hurt the rest of the game because you can no longer dedicate the time necessary to play.

 

I like the idea of the player rating system. That would give everyone the opportunity to peer review the other players and decide whether or not they think they should be able to participate in the games.

 

 

Set up a rating system where players can rate each other after each game and have certain games require a minimum rating.

 

 

i think this is a great idea 

 

 

Set up a rating system where players can rate each other after each game and have certain games require a minimum rating.

 
My favorite suggestion, I really liked this one

Yeah rating system is a good way to force players to play a more proactive part. I just want to know on what basis town will rate scum?

What criteria would be used for rating others? Skillful playing? Willlingness to participate? A not being an annoying jerk?

 

Will limiting participation based on ratings discourage newbies from playing?

 

What are the risks of it becoming a popularity contest?

 

I’m not saying rating is a bad idea, just raising questions.

What criteria would be used for rating others? Skillful playing? Willlingness to participate? A not being an annoying jerk?

 

Will limiting participation based on ratings discourage newbies from playing?

 

What are the risks of it becoming a popularity contest?

 

I’m not saying rating is a bad idea, just raising questions.

agreed 100%.  lachiton mentioned those points in the thread kevinH made for a sample rating system

 

 

Imagine how great these games would be if 15 people signed up for a game and all 15 people actively participated. There would never be any more mafia team discussions of "let's kill this one person because they are clearly active and leading the town" or any town discussions of "let's lynch this person because he is a lurker and even if he's a townie he isn't helpful and won't help when needed". How do we as a mafia community want to handle this moving forward? Should there be stricter post requirements? Should we do something else? Any suggestions?

 

That would be so glorious. I think you've made a step into right direction with your last game (even though it's still to easy to avoid) and we can build upon it.

 

We'd need a rating you mention in other topic (like post numbers, overall activity, contribution to discussions, etc.), however not as a general rating but a mod's checklist for the game. This would be rules every game participant needs to obey. If he does not, he gets a warning from the mod. After let's say third warning he's removed from the game.

 

By removing I mean either:

- Replacing the player if there's anyone waiting

- Seeing if a quick rebalancing cane be made (for example adding randomly 1-shot bulletproof mod to some town for removing a vanilla townie). I don't know how much work it would need from mod, but I guess it would be very effective tool and people would start do play by the rules as soon as first guy gets kicked. There are probably some easy modifiers that can be applied to rebalance things. For example a standard townie could be exchanged for mentioned 1-shot bulletproof (or something like that, I'm sure KevinH will know better). On top of that if player that's being removed is for example a Doc some other vanilla townie can be promoted to a nurse just a moment before Doc is being removed from the game.

 

 

In a certain sense, there is little difference between the inactive vs the fluffer vs the spammer vs the jellyfish

 

What's jellyfish?

What's jellyfish?

Someone who floats along with minimal effort. Not necessarily inactive, but not contributing significantly.

AbT, your idea of removing players is good. But it runs aground when the concerned player is mafia.

We can't solve that by giving a power role to another mafia as for mafia, they need numbers to survive.

AbT, your idea of removing players is good. But it runs aground when the concerned player is mafia.

We can't solve that by giving a power role to another mafia as for mafia, they need numbers to survive.

I don’t see a problem with this, the other way around (making a mafia town) is a problem.

You just need to change some things if the townie has already been investigated or something I suppose.

AbT, your idea of removing players is good. But it runs aground when the concerned player is mafia.

We can't solve that by giving a power role to another mafia as for mafia, they need numbers to survive.

Mafia is totally different thing. Inactives were never a problem for them. They were always a problem for the town. Being a town you never know if that's a scum lurking or inactive/not caring townie. And you'll never know because he wont respond to your questions/accusations. So anytime you want to do something about that (that means lynch the inactive) it's a lottery - you either hit mafia or town.

 

On the other hand mafia has all the knowledge needed and the more inactive town the better for them. So if I were a mod I wouldn't even monitor them - if they start lurking (And that's a valid strategy for them) they risk getting exposed and killed by the town.

I will just note that it is not always very easy to rebalance a game once it has begun. There is a certain amount of rebalancing that can be done but re-assigning roles is a messy proposition.

Yeah, I suppose it might be difficult. First step should be to replace such person (with a guy that was waiting or a killed player that gained no knowledge - that worked pretty well in the last KevinH's game).

If replacement is not available mod could try altering the game if possible.

If that's not an option player should be killed.

 

I think such approach would work since it would keep players behavior in check during the game. There would be no system abuse (like posting 3 times at the end of the day). Players would get private warnings from the Mod and they would know they'll be removed should they keep braking "activity rules".

Also it's better than ratings because it allows for immediate Mod reaction (there's no need to wait for 3 games to see that someone is breaking the rules) and secondly Mod's judgment cannot be abused by players (at least not as easily as some rules created for rating purposes).

 

 

In an effort not to hijack the Pokémon Mafia game thread with this discussion,

 

Can we address whatever is going on with the Pokemon Mafia here? Like, can someone please explain to me the logic of having a town role and creating an entire backstory that doesn't exist? NOT ONCE BUT TWICE in this game? Did I miss a memo to just mass throw this game? In what idea is this "fun"?

1) If scum wins, what type of win is that? They win because town basically Kurt Cobain'ed itself twice.
2) If town wins, it would be no thanks to those involved with whatever the hell was going on.

Like, what am I missing? 

 

In an effort not to hijack the Pokémon Mafia game thread with this discussion,

 

 

Can we address whatever is going on with the Pokemon Mafia here? Like, can someone please explain to me the logic of having a town role and creating an entire backstory that doesn't exist? NOT ONCE BUT TWICE in this game? Did I miss a memo to just mass throw this game? In what idea is this "fun"?

 

1) If scum wins, what type of win is that? They win because town basically Kurt Cobain'ed itself twice.

2) If town wins, it would be no thanks to those involved with whatever the hell was going on.

 

Like, what am I missing? 

 

This. How is this "fun" for anyone involved, town or scum alike? How is this fair to anyone else who want to enjoy a good mafia game? I am at complete loss of words with what went down two days in a row.

=

 

 

 

In an effort not to hijack the Pokémon Mafia game thread with this discussion,

 

Can we address whatever is going on with the Pokemon Mafia here? Like, can someone please explain to me the logic of having a town role and creating an entire backstory that doesn't exist? NOT ONCE BUT TWICE in this game? Did I miss a memo to just mass throw this game? In what idea is this "fun"?

1) If scum wins, what type of win is that? They win because town basically Kurt Cobain'ed itself twice.
2) If town wins, it would be no thanks to those involved with whatever the hell was going on.

Like, what am I missing? 

 

This. How is this "fun" for anyone involved, town or scum alike? How is this fair to anyone else who want to enjoy a good mafia game? I am at complete loss of words with what went down two days in a row.

 

we have tons of people who are actually taking a lot of time to read peoples posts and formulate ideas and whatnot.  It doesnt matter if you are town or scum.  What is going on is totally disrespectful to every single person who is actually making an effort in the game.  Sure its a game, but when you intentionally throw a game for whatever reason, all you are doing is spitting in the faces of everyone who makes an effort.  It is disgusting.

Exactly. I just can't understand why you would lie like that as a townie...

=

 

 

 

In an effort not to hijack the Pokémon Mafia game thread with this discussion,

 

 

Can we address whatever is going on with the Pokemon Mafia here? Like, can someone please explain to me the logic of having a town role and creating an entire backstory that doesn't exist? NOT ONCE BUT TWICE in this game? Did I miss a memo to just mass throw this game? In what idea is this "fun"?

 

1) If scum wins, what type of win is that? They win because town basically Kurt Cobain'ed itself twice.

2) If town wins, it would be no thanks to those involved with whatever the hell was going on.

 

Like, what am I missing? 

 

This. How is this "fun" for anyone involved, town or scum alike? How is this fair to anyone else who want to enjoy a good mafia game? I am at complete loss of words with what went down two days in a row.

 

we have tons of people who are actually taking a lot of time to read peoples posts and formulate ideas and whatnot.  It doesnt matter if you are town or scum.  What is going on is totally disrespectful to every single person who is actually making an effort in the game.  Sure its a game, but when you intentionally throw a game for whatever reason, all you are doing is spitting in the faces of everyone who makes an effort.  It is disgusting.

 

 

I don't understand why people gamethrow, if you really want out of the game then just find a replacement. Why sign up in the first place if you are going to quit mid-game? in Town of Salem, gamethrowing is a bannable offense. Those games only last about 30 mins. Not only does this game last months, but also has a lot of work behind the scenes. I feel gamethrowing should be a one offense ban for IRON Mafia, but that's just my opinion..

I agre,it should be in the game rules. If you throw a game = you're banned. We wont have absurd situations like in other game where someone quits because he joined second game and he finds it more fun.

I'd rather have smaller and faster games with good players than bigger ones that are falling apart.

 

As for lying I hope it'll be finally clear to everyone that town should never lie. The chances for anyone of us to be some kind of brilliant genius, outsmarting everyone else, are rather slim, so it's really not a viable tactic.

I mean the rules Kazio posted years ago state play to win as one of them

 

 

As for lying I hope it'll be finally clear to everyone that town should never lie. The chances for anyone of us to be some kind of brilliant genius, outsmarting everyone else, are rather slim, so it's really not a viable tactic.

^ This.

Lying is for scum.

 

In an effort not to hijack the Pokémon Mafia game thread with this discussion,

 

 

Can we address whatever is going on with the Pokemon Mafia here? Like, can someone please explain to me the logic of having a town role and creating an entire backstory that doesn't exist? NOT ONCE BUT TWICE in this game? Did I miss a memo to just mass throw this game? In what idea is this "fun"?

 

1) If scum wins, what type of win is that? They win because town basically Kurt Cobain'ed itself twice.

2) If town wins, it would be no thanks to those involved with whatever the hell was going on.

 

Like, what am I missing? 

 

 

 

Yup, said the same thing, I guess I missed the memo in regards to people just throwing the game.

 

To be quite frank, this shouldn't be tolerated.  We now have had 2 people completely lie about their roles and make up a story to go along with it that was completely fake.  You have someone claiming jack of all trades claiming he knew Rafay was town, who was a commuter, and at the end of the day, goes from his story he still has bulletproof left to no longer having roles.  You have a guy claiming Jailer for which he wasn't, this when his back was against the wall and very well shouldn't be making things up.

 

To me, this is just blatant throwing of the game and takes away completely from the individuals actually spending time examining comments, trying to find scum, and actually playing the game.  Not only unfair to the players, but Mod's should be outraged that people are literally ruining their game they spent setting up and modding.  Should be zero tolerance for this.  At this point I've lost interest in the current game over it, as what's the point of spending the time trying to play right when you got people just giving it away.  

Never mind. My comment was not helpful.

Edited May 26, 20188 yr by Sister Midnight