... the undesirables, low lifes, and nerf herders
Not you!
I'd take your side any day, Or does that make me an undesirable, low-life, nerf-herder?
... the undesirables, low lifes, and nerf herders
"Baptized in Fire and Blood"
"Baptized in Fire and Blood"
So you follow me instead of KevinH on 2 out of 3 options and yet you FOS me for disagreeing with KevinH?K, I'll formalize my vote here. Vote: Godfather, Ninja, 1-shot Janitor.
FOS: Martino for disagreeing with Kevin.
Pinky OS: EM for being EM and being overly-talkative in his posts. (just kidding)
Mafia chosen townie roles:
Macho Cop
Doctor
weak Doctor
4-Shot Vig
Bulletproof
Vengeful
Detective
Townie chosen mafia roles:
4-shot roleblocker
Day Rolecop
1-shot janitor
Godfather
Ninja
Bus driver
Just putting here to make things easier
Mafia chosen townie roles:
NEVER
Macho Cop - I think the mafia won't definitely get this as this could be risky
4-Shot Vig - With those 4 shots, I think they could kill a scum or two.
I think the only strategy that the scum could use with this role is if there is a bus driver.
PROBABLY (4 chosen)
Doctor
weak Doctor
Bulletproof
Vengeful
Detective
Townie chosen mafia roles:
NEVER
Day Rolecop - I'm guessing the one who invented this game knew that this would never get voted
1-shot janitor - Since I think that we will never get a macho cop, all the more that ruining the lynched player's alignment is harmful to us.
It may even confuse a detective if we have one if what he thinks is a mafia is a townie and vice versa. It may bring to the death of a townie with a power role.
PROBABLY (3 chosen)
4-shot roleblocker
Ninja
Bus driver
Godfather
I'll decide later.
useless if used on 2 towniesDuring the night you may "switch" two players. Any actions against the first player, will instead be used against the second and vice versa.
this part is useless if the town has no investigation ability.You will be seen as targeting both players however.
How much metagaming usually goes on in these? Because if the mafia thinks that people will assume they won't give out the dreamer roles, they could then give out the dreamer roles with the assumption that they'll then get the protection from dreamers roles because everyone will think the dreamers don't exist. Yeah, it's a tiny bit complicated/heavy on assumptions but it only really relies on one key assumption (people will assume that the weakest roles are the ones given out).
Yes the Janitor is the most game changing ability. It would be one thing if he could just cover up the alignment of someone but he can change the alignment we are shown. Meaning that they can put us completely on the wrong track. Most mafia games here play out according to some initial suspicions and then vote counts. I'm a little confused so many people fail to see the problem of giving them the Janitor ability, so I would like to ask a question: How do you envision our scumhunting if they have a Janitor?
I would also like to ask that if someone is doubting, even just a little bit, that he please unvotes the Janitor role. We need to have a good discussion before deciding on what to give them and this one already has too many votes.
So you follow me instead of KevinH on 2 out of 3 options and yet you FOS me for disagreeing with KevinH?
Well, there is of course the WIFOM aspect of it, but I don't think it plays that big of a role here. If we give them those roles, only one of the mafia would be immune to each investigation type. I would still rather end up in a situation where we have a cop/tracker but cannot completely trust the innocent results than any set up where we do not have a cop/tracker. So the mafia really doesn't have anything to gain by trying to outguess the town by giving us a cop/tracker. Even if they rightly assume that we would give them a godfather and ninja, they would still be off worse than when they would have given us the less powerful roles. As a result, it is highly likely that the mafia did not give us an investigative role and the correct move on our part would be to give them a godfather and a ninja. Even if that would turn out to be a mistake because the mafia gave us investigative roles, the mafia would have made a bigger mistake and we still come out ahead.How much metagaming usually goes on in these? Because if the mafia thinks that people will assume they won't give out the dreamer roles, they could then give out the dreamer roles with the assumption that they'll then get the protection from dreamers roles because everyone will think the dreamers don't exist. Yeah, it's a tiny bit complicated/heavy on assumptions but it only really relies on one key assumption (people will assume that the weakest roles are the ones given out).
Hmm, now i'm wondering where I got the changing part from. Well, that does make it sightly less suspicious that people were willing to give out the janitor role . But I'd still rather not give them that abiity.The janitor roles says cover up not change alignment.
So I would think that it would mean we don't get to know if it's a dead townie or dead mafia.
Anyways...it's still bad if the ability gets used in the later stages of the game.
Hey Preston, thanks for playing with us
Have you read these guides?: http://www.iron-command.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=111
They explain the roles pretty well.
FoS means Field of Suspicion. It basically means that you declare a player to be suspicious to you for whatever reason, but you are not voting to lynch him yet.
During the day there are often a few people gathering votes. In the end it usually comes down to two people. So then at the end of the day, there are a few people who are voting for player A and there are a few people who are voting for player B and let's say A gets the most votes and is lynched. Without a janitor his alignment will be revealed. So we will, for example, find out that he is a mafia player. In that case, the players who did not vote for player A will be more suspicious, as they tried to avoid a mafia lynch. If instead his alignment is hidden, we will know nothing. He could be mafia and the other mafia could try to hide his identity in order to save themselves, but he could be town just as well, with the mafia hiding his alignment simply to create some confusion. The main problem I have with the janitor role is that it takes away one of the strongest weapons of the town. If we don't know what the alignment of a player is, we don't gain any information from the lynch. Without information, we will never discover the mafia.Thanks for the links and the explanation ccabal! I think the most helpful is that the first link actually stepped me through a full 'game' so to speak.
I'm still not sure I understand why some of these roles would be powerful in practice, but I think canuck and kaziocore make a persuasive argument for godfather and ninja.
So the ones left for the 3rd vote are bus driver, 4-shot roleblocker, and 1-shot janitor. Martino seems very... passionate, about janitor not being an option - would you mind explaining yourself a little more, possibly with a scenario for how it would be used?
Yes, the role blocker can stop any night action. However, we will rely much more on good scumhunting by the town then on pro town night actions,especially since we most likely do not have any investigative roles. The best we can probably hope for is a doc preventing a night kill. Sure it would be annoying to have that doc roleblocked, but that will only happen if both the doc gets lucky by protecting the mafia target and the mafia get lucky by guessing who the doc is. Except for the situation where both docs have roleclaimed, those odds are fairly low. If the vengeful townie gets his role revealed when lynched, then that would perhaps be a more likely roleblock target. Though thinking about it, I would rather have him roleblocked than having his target changed. So I'm now leaning towards the 4-shot roleblocker as the third mafia role.Actually a usefulness scenario for all three of them would be useful; I'd thought the roleblocker was the most powerful from the descriptions since it could totally STOP anything.
My understanding of the roleblocker (and please tell me if this is wrong) is that if there are two people A and B they think could be the doctor protecting each other, mafia could block one of them and try and kill the other. If A is the doctor and they blocked him, then B would die. If B was the doctor and they blocked A, then B would still die since doctors cant protect themselves. Maybe I'm totally missing something, but this seems dangerous to give them...
At the moment I'm kinda with canucksdynasty in that the bus driver still seems less useful, so I'm more likely to vote for that - can I get some more thoughts on the matter?
-Preston
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