524 replies to this topic

[ABigDeer]

Sorry for the third post. I had to mention d3mon for inactivity as well, in case anyone thought I was trying to forget people.

[Robert2424]

He's the next on my activity list, who knows. 

[TBRaiders]

Preston, I didn't quote it, but that was a good post.  It is interesting to see what some of you "vets" read into other posts and how I don't quite see the same thing.  I actually became suspicious of D3mon when he so quickly jumped off the no-lynch bandwagon because it seemed like an opportune moment (OOC - I didn't realize the day ended when we hit majority and while I will stick with the no lynch for day 1, I realize now I should have just held the vote until I saw a lot more discussion.)

[d3mon]

Preston, I didn't quote it, but that was a good post.  It is interesting to see what some of you "vets" read into other posts and how I don't quite see the same thing.  I actually became suspicious of D3mon when he so quickly jumped off the no-lynch bandwagon because it seemed like an opportune moment (OOC - I didn't realize the day ended when we hit majority and while I will stick with the no lynch for day 1, I realize now I should have just held the vote until I saw a lot more discussion.)

 

Imho, Town's most important weapon is this thread. The no lynch bandwagon was so close to getting the majority that it might've caused us to loose an entire day worth of discussion. I am usually not suspicious of early bandwagons but I have to say that your vote was either a newbie mistake (probable) or a clever attempt by scum to end the day quickly (a newbie scum mistake?).

 

FoS: TBRaiders

[Preston]

 

Preston, I didn't quote it, but that was a good post.  It is interesting to see what some of you "vets" read into other posts and how I don't quite see the same thing.  I actually became suspicious of D3mon when he so quickly jumped off the no-lynch bandwagon because it seemed like an opportune moment (OOC - I didn't realize the day ended when we hit majority and while I will stick with the no lynch for day 1, I realize now I should have just held the vote until I saw a lot more discussion.)

 
Imho, Town's most important weapon is this thread. The no lynch bandwagon was so close to getting the majority that it might've caused us to loose an entire day worth of discussion. I am usually not suspicious of early bandwagons but I have to say that your vote was either a newbie mistake (probable) or a clever attempt by scum to end the day quickly (a newbie scum mistake?).
 
FoS: TBRaiders

 

 
@TBRaiders (And @Nick since you've referred to this too) You don't have to worry about separating OOC comments in the thread; there's not exactly a ton of character immersion or anything at play here. Nothing stops you from playing more to the flavor character if you wish, but people won't be offended if you don't post like your middle-earth namesake. 
 
As for content; at least Kaz and myself gave d3mon some townie credit for withdrawing his vote when we were at L-1 (that means one vote away from ending the day) to keep the day from ending too fast. d3mon was the first vote, before it became a sizable bandwagon; he could probably have safely left his vote there and let the day end by someone else hammering it (finishing the vote). 
 
With that said - I'm leaning toward the newbie mistake option for TBRaiders. He was only the third vote, so he didn't even bring the wagon to the halfway mark. 
 
As for ABigDeer... I'm a little confused by what I'm seeing there - it seems like a lot of hedging. He starts by responding to EM and saying he doesnt believe EM's defense. Then he throws a defense of EM to Robert, saying EM could be trying to spark a reaction. Then he defends his word choices to EM, and he ends by saying he actually suspects Lyner over EM.

 

On the one hand, EM's picking up on ABD just saying "the goblins" a lot really is thin. However ABD has thrown a bunch of names around without voting for any of them yet; not exactly lurking yet avoiding committing to it. For the moment I'll keep an eye on ABD as well. 

 

For those watching at home, my suspect list currently reads:

 

1. Lyner - 6th vote on the wagon, sparse posts thus far... I actually think his ONLY vote was his no-lynch vote?

2. EM - 5th vote on the wagon, in a departure from his usual pro-lynch stance as Kaz pointed out - and I don't believe he didn't know what he was doing with that 5th vote. Has since changed vote to ABigDeer, which initially looked shaky but may have some substance to it.

3. ABigDeer - singled out by EM after ABD posted suspecting him, but hasn't voted at all yet. Per my notes in this post, seems to be flipflopping as to suspecting EM, Lyner, and now Imran or Montosh.

 

I also want to see more content from those who havent posted as much so far. I understand this is a crazy time right after new years', so we can give people SOME slack - but by Sunday at the latest I'll hope to have seen something from everyone. 

 

-Preston

 

[ABigDeer]

To respond to Preston: I have never really been one to throw out votes, or attempt to start a train unless I have a bit of a belief for someone to be scum. EM has no substance for his accusation of me, he attacks the words I have chosen and responds to my criticism of his strategy (which I haven't seen before) with a vote against me. But that is how some people choose their votes. I suspect Lyner more over EM because he voted after him. I am not saying that we shouldn't no lynch, however when you have people straight off the bat voting no lynch less than a day the game starts the people who were voting at the end, knowing full well that it can lead to a very quick day should be given at least a bit of suspicion.

 

 

I don't see that much of an issue of TPB's no lynch vote as he said he is new and I pretty much did this on my first game, and d3mon retracted his vote to prevent a no lynch.

 

So yes I believe that EM and Lyner's actions were not of interest to the town and they know it very well, that's why they should be looked at with some suspicion. And I do also think that people who do not contribute, scum or not, are of no use to us and should be suspected as well. Which are in this case Imran and Montosh.

[d3mon]

To respond to Preston: I have never really been one to throw out votes, or attempt to start a train unless I have a bit of a belief for someone to be scum. EM has no substance for his accusation of me, he attacks the words I have chosen and responds to my criticism of his strategy (which I haven't seen before) with a vote against me. But that is how some people choose their votes. I suspect Lyner more over EM because he voted after him. I am not saying that we shouldn't no lynch, however when you have people straight off the bat voting no lynch less than a day the game starts the people who were voting at the end, knowing full well that it can lead to a very quick day should be given at least a bit of suspicion.

 

 

I don't see that much of an issue of TPB's no lynch vote as he said he is new and I pretty much did this on my first game, and d3mon retracted his vote to prevent a no lynch.

 

So yes I believe that EM and Lyner's actions were not of interest to the town and they know it very well, that's why they should be looked at with some suspicion. And I do also think that people who do not contribute, scum or not, are of no use to us and should be suspected as well. Which are in this case Imran and Montosh.

 

I agree, the inactives don't help town. Also, as we saw in the last game, it is easy for scum to barely post and stay away from limelight. Still, considering the time of the year, I think it would be hasty to start judging people based on it.

 

I don't consider one or two votes for someone as a bandwagon but three quick votes get my attention. So, in my book, TBR was the one to start the bandwagon. Now, that alone is not enough to suspect a new player but hey, its enough to start noticing him. It was actually his OOC comment that reminded everyone of taking it easy on a new guy that pushed him into my FoS.. heck its day 1 and all I have is my spidey sense

 

Votes from EM and Lyner were worse but tbh I was expecting EM (and Kazio) to vote for no lynch. I have seen numerous games with day 1 spent in lynch vs no lynch debate and well.. KevinH has always been a staunch supporter of no lynch while they have spent a lot of time trying to convince him otherwise.

 

That leaves us Lyner and Rafay.. Now, I find it very difficult to read Rafay as he always seem to go with the flow (irrespective of his role) and joining a bandwagon is nothing different from what I have seen him do but I can't explain what Lyner was thinking. So, here it goes

 

Vote:Lyner

[KevinH]

Vote Count:

• Robert2424, Beorn, (2): Montosh, Nick The Great
• Lyner, Gandalf the Grey, (2): Preston, D3mon
• D3mon, Thranduil, (1): Imran Ehsan
• Electric Mango, Dain II Ironfoot, (1): Kaziocore
• ABigDeer, Bard the Bowman, (1): Electric Mango
• Imran Ehsan, Thorin Oakenshield, (1): Robert2424
• Nick The Great, Girion, (0):
• Rafay, Radagast the Brown, (0):
• Kaziocore, Legolas Greenleaf, (0)
• Montosh, Bilbo Baggins, (0)
• Preston, Bain, (0)
• TBRaiders, Gwaihir the Windlord, (0)

• No-Lynch (3): , TBRaiders, Rafay, Lyner
• Not Voting (1): ABigDeer

Deadline is 1200 EST, Monday, January 12.

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch, or 4 at deadline.

[Robert2424]

Good conversation so far, for day 1 anyways. Preston being the biggest contributor so far. Seems rather basic right now. 

[Kaziocore]

Lyner is also usually in favor of a D1 lynch so that's something to think about.
 
------------------------------------

 

My No Lynch vote was just for fun since this is a KevinH modded game and he always votes for a Day 1 lynch. I will probably be throwing in a haiku at some time during this game as well .

Well since there's already a sizeable number of votes for no lynch, this is hard to believe.
Maybe EM wouldn't even mention his vote was just for fun if no lynch was pushed through.
 
------------------------------------

 

@ABigDeer Why don't you vote so it would be clear where you stand right now.

[Kaziocore]

 

When arrows are shot at night and miss, the night scene will include information about why (think role-block, protection, etc).  
It obviously won't reveal who did it, but I'm giving fair warning that I'm going to disclose a little bit more information than usual.

 
So the mod just clarified the rules for this game. THAT is interesting - and implies that we'll be getting some free info that a cop won't have to investigate or role claim for. We'll have to see what that looks like on Night 1 when it happens to really judge how useful it will be. It also implies that the mentioned roles (roleblocker/doctor) are probably in the game. What I worry about is that if THIS is the main source of information the mod intends us to have, we may not have a cop to work with.

 

Maybe this was done because we cannot mass claim?

[Preston]

 

My No Lynch vote was just for fun since this is a KevinH modded game and he always votes for a Day 1 lynch. I will probably be throwing in a haiku at some time during this game as well .

Well since there's already a sizeable number of votes for no lynch, this is hard to believe.
Maybe EM wouldn't even mention his vote was just for fun if no lynch was pushed through.

 

This is essentially the reason I'm looking at both EM and Lyners' votes. Throwing a no-lynch vote in a KevinH modded game "just for fun" is one thing; throwing a no-lynch vote when it makes you 5 or 6 on the bandwagon is another matter entirely. Both EM and Lyner know enough to know what they were doing... doubly so because my post immediately before their votes discussed Rafay bringing the wagon to 4 votes. And if the day had ended early, you can bet everyone on the wagon would have stuck with the just for fun/for KevinH line to proclaim their innocence on Day 2 - which is why it would have been such a win for the scum if that had occurred. 

 

 

 

When arrows are shot at night and miss, the night scene will include information about why (think role-block, protection, etc).  
It obviously won't reveal who did it, but I'm giving fair warning that I'm going to disclose a little bit more information than usual.

 
So the mod just clarified the rules for this game. THAT is interesting - and implies that we'll be getting some free info that a cop won't have to investigate or role claim for. We'll have to see what that looks like on Night 1 when it happens to really judge how useful it will be. It also implies that the mentioned roles (roleblocker/doctor) are probably in the game. What I worry about is that if THIS is the main source of information the mod intends us to have, we may not have a cop to work with.

 

Maybe this was done because we cannot mass claim?

I'm not sure if this is related to mass claiming... I dont remember it happening THAT often, but I have been away for a while. Not being able to say "Okay everyone, cards on the table" to push everyone to claim at once doesnt seem THAT big of a loss to be offset. Individual claims still seem to be allowed; at what point do a bunch of independent claims on the same day become a "mass claim" if it's not otherwise asked for?

 

Custom games like this one just beg to be tweaked or clarified mid-game; when I modded/ran TBD mafia two games ago, mid-game I thought of a line I'd rather have added to the Witch Doctor role to allow for an edge case - but since the role was already public and a night had already passed, I didn't do so. Kevin getting in this change before Night 1 means he can be consistent on all nights going forward, so that makes sense to me. 

 

Good conversation so far, for day 1 anyways. Preston being the biggest contributor so far. Seems rather basic right now. 

We've gotten some people talking - actually a surprising number given that the day has revolved around a new years' holiday. There are still some inactives (Imran, Montosh, Lyner) that need to show their faces; hopefully activity will pick up as people come back from their holiday plans. After the next day or two holiday craziness will stop being a valid excuse for inactives to claim. 

 

-Preston

[KevinH]

Not being able to say "Okay everyone, cards on the table" to push everyone to claim at once doesnt seem THAT big of a loss to be offset. Individual claims still seem to be allowed; at what point do a bunch of independent claims on the same day become a "mass claim" if it's not otherwise asked for?

My goal is to provide a fun game that is balanced such that anyone could win.

The Alliance could possibly come up with a breaking strategy, if certain roles are claimed. If this happens, I'll give "strong arrows" to the goblins to keep the game in balance. (The goblins may not fake-claim to get the strong arrows either!)

So don't worry about being mod-killed for making a claim.

If you feel the need to make a claim, go ahead. Just consider if the role you are claiming is potentially adding to a breaking strategy and if you potentially want the consequences. Feel free to PM me first, and I'll let you know if it's of concern to me.

So at what point do a bunch of independent claims on the same day become a "mass claim"? Ten claims are OK if they are vanilla townie/minor roles. Two claims are not OK if they are the cop and the doctor. (For example only, I am not guaranteeing there is a cop and/or a doctor).

Play the game normally and it should be fun.

Don't try to prove that my setup could have a flaw. I already know that.


 

[Imran Ehsan]

I have been a bit busy lately. I need to catch up on the last 2 pages before I post any comments. So just heads up I am not inactive/lurking..just havent had a chance to read up on all the posts so far here,

[ABigDeer]

Alright I will vote

 

Vote: Lyner

 

For being the most suspicious in my eyes due to an almost fatal blow to the day with a no lynch vote, and for not coming back since to contribute or explain his actions (which for me a 'fun' vote being the 6th no lynch vote is not good enough for me, even more so than EM) . Neither of these things benefits our town at. For now my vote will be for him while I wait for his take on this.

[Preston]

I have been a bit busy lately. I need to catch up on the last 2 pages before I post any comments. So just heads up I am not inactive/lurking..just havent had a chance to read up on all the posts so far here,

Good to hear from you Imran; I know it's after new years', but do try and jump in asap. 

 

Alright I will vote

 

Vote: Lyner

 

For being the most suspicious in my eyes due to an almost fatal blow to the day with a no lynch vote, and for not coming back since to contribute or explain his actions (which for me a 'fun' vote being the 6th no lynch vote is not good enough for me, even more so than EM) . Neither of these things benefits our town at. For now my vote will be for him while I wait for his take on this.

Good; putting your vote where your words are at least gets you on record for it. Given that I already suspect Lyner I can't disagree with your choice - though I could still see this action as just following others' lead when pressed. You'll remain on my suspect list for now. 

 

-Preston

[Robert2424]

Keeping my vote on Imran till he catches up. there is no threat in lynching him. Little hard to place pressure on somebody by myself. 

 

There is a bit of a Bandwagon on Lyner, and Lyner hasn't even posted yet. (Since 3 is a bandwagon, I know somebody already said that. I think Preston said it?) So 2 bandwagons on Day 1. Maybe some insight. 

[Electric Mango]

I love all the discussion we have been having on Day 1. Am I the only one who finds it ironic that so much conversation has been generated because of all the no lynch votes? I mean, c'mon right!!?!

[ABigDeer]

I won't deny that Preston. I usually place more pressure on my suspicions later on in the game, rather than starting something from virtually nothing on day 1 other than how you interpret other's actions. But then again the only game where I've been innocent was a day 1 night kill

[Preston]

Keeping my vote on Imran till he catches up. there is no threat in lynching him. Little hard to place pressure on somebody by myself. 

 

There is a bit of a Bandwagon on Lyner, and Lyner hasn't even posted yet. (Since 3 is a bandwagon, I know somebody already said that. I think Preston said it?) So 2 bandwagons on Day 1. Maybe some insight. 

 

Lyner has posted once - to place the 6th vote on the no-lynch wagon that brought it to L-1. But you are correct that he has not posted since then. 

 

As for when it's a 'bandwagon'; we run the risk of going down a language rabbit hole here, but why not; it may benefit the newer players as well. 

 

I called the no-lynch push a wagon at 4 votes (which was also the first time I saw it), and separately commented that Day 1 random/humor votes rarely go beyond the first one or two on a person - perhaps the latter is what you're referring to. 

 

There's not necessarily a clear line when a bunch of votes starts being a 'bandwagon', and the name isn't really used for anything more than to refer to "the bunch of people voting for the same thing". What I watch for (and when I tend to use the term) is when people join the later stages of a building vote, when they think it is 'safe' to do so without standing out.

 

Sadly the most readable quote for this is wikipedia as opposed to mafiascum: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwagon_effect vs http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bandwagon

 

In layman’s terms the bandwagon effect refers to people doing certain things because other people are doing them, regardless of their own beliefs, which they may ignore or override. The perceived "popularity" of an object or person may have an effect on how it is viewed on a whole. For instance, once a product becomes popular, more people tend to "get on the bandwagon" and buy it, too.

 

Anyway, I digress. 

 

You are correct that we seem to have a second vote building, whether you call it a bandwagon or not. The no-lynch wagon built pretty fast and nearly finished the day; this one is a bit slower and based on the last vote(s) of that first wagon. I'm keeping my vote there to keep myself on record as suspecting Lyner for nearly ending the day before. However like the first wagon I do NOT want this to end the day any time soon - we need to keep talking, and Lyner really should say something. 

 

-Preston