142 replies to this topic

[onbekende]

something something about borders being badly protected and only vile terrorists entering the EU.

[ccabal86]

Mexico is not the only country from where illegal immigrants are coming from, but rather the entirety of Latin Amerca. According to studies, a good 3/4 of them don't end up risking the dangerous trip to the US and eventually settle on the Mexican side.

Now, would you care to take a guess how the illegal migrant numbers would change if The US Border Control suddenly tore down the border walls, gave up patrols and made no attempts to arrest or detain anyone who casually strolled across the border without bothering to show any documents, while Obama issued a public speech that "all latinos are welcome here with open arms"?

Edited by ccabal86, 14 November 2015 - 10:29 PM.

[Lysistrata]

I hear two of the attackers so far have been identified as Syrian refugees that came in through Greece. Prepare for much more of this... everywhere they go. Remember they bombed a Russian plane out of Egypt before this... so if you're not ISIS I guess you're fair game. Our leaders better get aggressive quickly, and stop this ignorant, passive, pussy approach.

[onbekende]

Mexico is not the only country from where illegal immigrants are coming from, but rather the entirety of Latin Amerca. According to studies, a good 3/4 of them don't end up risking the dangerous trip to the US and eventually settle on the Mexican side.

Now, would you care to take a guess how the illegal migrant numbers would change if The US Border Control suddenly tore down the border walls, gave up patrols and made no attempts to arrest or detain anyone who casually strolled across the border without bothering to show any documents, while Obama issued a public speech that "all latinos are welcome here with open arms"?

Anyone who wants to go will go, the journey's difficulty only prolong the time needed. The famous "Wir shaffen das" line was AFTER the flood started, not before.

 

The people "flooding" into the EU these days from the east are many who were in camps bordering Syria/Iraq for as much as 5y, they just gave up on getting back into their home in a reasonable timeframe.

 

I hear two of the attackers so far have been identified as Syrian refugees that came in through Greece. Prepare for much more of this... everywhere they go. Remember they bombed a Russian plane out of Egypt before this... so if you're not ISIS I guess you're fair game. Our leaders better get aggressive quickly, and stop this ignorant, passive, pussy approach.

The papers they are holding, yes. Seeing as most tend to ditch said papers as to not be "stuck" in point of entry, who knows how these attackers got them. Could 5 in 200k be a terrorist? Wouldn't be surprising. It just points that a single line defense doesn't work, you need multiple cogs in a system to filter out any "unwanted" individuals. And even then they might have been "persuaded" in those 3 months to act this way. The 3 direct suicides at the stadium used an obvious different ME then the 5 others going around with AK-47's (but also with suicide devices).

 

Yes get aggresive, yes get moving swiftly and decisivly. Put please, PLEASE, do it clean and correct. The so called "tip toeing around" is mostly meant to halt any collateral damage from occuring (surprisingly few "bad" hits did happen, up until the russians started bombing stuff), you know, the damage done to a society that only prolongs an armed conflict of civilians against authority.

[Road2Victory]

It is indeed ISIS who did this. Why don't the rest of Europe stop carrying about immigrants and just leave them? I see it very ironic that the number of refugees that Europe offer vs the number that America takes in. Only America had like 26-27 people killed by extremists in the past 7 years since 9/11. Europe is such ignorant of their immigration policies.

[Icewolf]

For those proposing a quick fix of ending immigration, it really is not that simple. People are going to keep trying to reach Europe by sea. And that means if you block their entry, they are still at sea in boats that are not seaworthy. There was an attempt in spring to adopt a policy of not rescuing boats sinking in the Med. It lasted as long as it took for hundreds of people, many times the casualty numbers in Paris, to die in a week.

 

So you either have to let them land or you have to condemn them to death. And then what do you do with them? There are two main problems; 

 

1. The entire of Europe has a long standing commitment to various Human Rights documents that prohibit deporting people who have filed an Asylum claim without considering their claim. These Human Right documents are anchored in the structures set up to prevent another world war beginning in Europe. They are also part of the international collection of treaties that all civilised nations, including the USA, are signed up to. It is not desirable to tear these structures down. 

 

2. Where do you deport them to? You have 100 Syrian Refugees you have decided to deport-to where? Phone up Turkey and say "oi, these were in your camp?" What if Turkey says "nope, no records here" and slams the phone down. Back to Syria? What if Syria refuses to acknowledge they are citizens? Or the bit of Syria the person is from is now under IS rule?

 

Ultimately, aiming to first tackle the refugee issues in Europe is firstly very difficult as it is hard to do without killing many more innocents than have already died. Secondly, it is very important to recognise that the refugee situation is a symptom not a disease in its own right, it is caused by the failure to have a comprehensive solution to the Syria/IS problem.

[Lysistrata]

Hi Ice... It took you a while to type all that out... makes me wonder what your investment is. You believe we have an immigration problem, that we have a moral obligation, and signed documents, that say we must allow refugees into our countries.

 

I have a few questions just to get an idea of how your brain works...

 

So how many people have to die before you call it a terrorist problem?

When does our moral obligation become a suicide pact?

When do we take their death threats seriously and understand that they have declared war on us all?

Bernie Sanders said last night that terrorism is caused by "climate change"... Do you agree?

Can you say... "Radical Islam"?

 

I don't know where you live... from our conversations, I'll take a guess at the UK. Please refresh my memory... how many German refugees did England take care of during WW2? We put our Japanese in camps, over 100,000 of them. We do what we must during a time of war, and this is war.

[Shahenshah]

Just to put the benevolence in context.

Last time Nationalists ran Europe, there was holocaust. While not all supporters of Nationalists are neo Nazis but pretty much all of neo Nazis would be gladly voting for Nationalists or parties that would form a right wing nationalist coalition government. I won't be surprised if this all ends up with another holocaust.

It was Liberalism that defeated conservatism and brought Europe out of dark ages, it was Liberalism that defeated communism, fascism and nationalism. Today, Liberalism is under attack from conservatism in America, Nationalism in Europe and Extremism in Middle East, offcourse, the degree to which they affect us negatively varies, with extremism as the biggest threat by far. The ugly evil rises again, in different forms, it promotes us vs them, white vs black, xenophobia and war.


Also, Once again, we are discussing how to take care of the effect: Refugees, but not the solution to the root of the problem: Global Proxy war in Syria.

Edited by Shahenshah, 15 November 2015 - 07:05 PM.

[ccabal86]

The problem with that chart is that it ends with 2013.

[Shahenshah]

The problem with that chart is that it ends with 2013.

 

 

 

The problem is that we're discussing an effect: Refugee crises and not the cause: Global proxy war in Syria for various interests. 

Edited by Shahenshah, 15 November 2015 - 06:50 PM.

[Lysistrata]

Hi Shah!... I don't understand the context of these refugee charts. Are you saying that bringing in refugees is a great thing to do? If so... please take them all, we don't want them. You obviously have no idea what being a conservative is. Do you know what the Nazi's were? They were the National Socialist German Workers Party. Not much in common there. Are you calling me a racist? Try something original. I don't want terrorists to enter the USA... and I don't care if you think I'm a racist, it just makes you misguided.

[ccabal86]

The problem with that chart is that it ends with 2013.

 
 
 
The problem is that we're discussing an effect: Refugee crises and not the cause: Global proxy war in Syria for various interests. 

I think we're basically in agreement, the number 1 priority would be to end the anarchy in the ME and NA. Now our dear leaders should just get off their asses and do it.

[Rafay]

We put our Japanese in camps, over 100,000 of them.

 

I think we all will agree that it was the darkest moment in USA's human rights history.

[Rafay]

Now our dear leaders should just get off their asses and do it.

 

No no no. Haven't you guys learned anything after 2 wars. Violence will only lead to a cluster fuck of more violence in the mid-east. That's just how it is. That's just how its been for centuries. They love to fight, even on the most trivial of matters. They love their tribal heritage and their guns.

 

The thing to do is educate them in the liberal ways of European styled diplomacy post-WW2. Europe has multiple nations and different religions. Same as mid-east but they understand that bloodshed is bad cuz there are more intellectuals there. We need to educate mid-east and eliminate their centuries old tribal heritage and customs so they can progress and forget their blood-lust that has been going on for centuries!!!

[Fox Fire]

 

Now our dear leaders should just get off their asses and do it.

 

No no no. Haven't you guys learned anything after 2 wars. Violence will only lead to a cluster fuck of more violence in the mid-east. That's just how it is. That's just how its been for centuries. They love to fight, even on the most trivial of matters. They love their tribal heritage and their guns.

 

The thing to do is educate them in the liberal ways of European styled diplomacy post-WW2. Europe has multiple nations and different religions. Same as mid-east but they understand that bloodshed is bad cuz there are more intellectuals there. We need to educate mid-east and eliminate their centuries old tribal heritage and customs so they can progress and forget their blood-lust that has been going on for centuries!!!

 

There is no negotiating with ISIS, or "educating" them. They're following an apocalyptic ideology where they believe the end is near and Islam must take over the world. They specifically reject western education and ideology. Everything their ideology is based on, is the rejection of western culture in favor of fundamentalist Islam. This is a huge idea in the middle east.

WW2 wasn't ended with education and ISIS doesn't have any demands. Endless war for the foreseeable future, anyone? 

[Rafay]

I wasn't talking about ISIS. I was referring to the common folk of mid-east. That's the way they are cuz of their customs.

 

The thing is that we can destroy ISIS. But the vacuum will be filled by another terror group. After excising the tumor, you have to still give chemo or radio to kill the remaining cells that cannot be surgically removed. ISIS replaced AQAP in Iraq and Syria so it won't be long b4 another Jihadi jingoist group picks up arms against the west.

 

We need to defeat the ignorance and illiteracy in the region and provide stability and a European model of democracy there.

[onbekende]

We shall need to bring Belgian Democracy to all, endless gridlock of political inactivity o/

[Commander Shepard]

It is indeed ISIS who did this. Why don't the rest of Europe stop carrying about immigrants and just leave them? I see it very ironic that the number of refugees that Europe offer vs the number that America takes in. Only America had like 26-27 people killed by extremists in the past 7 years since 9/11. Europe is such ignorant of their immigration policies.

 

Well the US is in a different more isolated part of the world, you can't really compare it.

[ccabal86]

I wasn't talking about ISIS. I was referring to the common folk of mid-east. That's the way they are cuz of their customs.
 
The thing is that we can destroy ISIS. But the vacuum will be filled by another terror group. After excising the tumor, you have to still give chemo or radio to kill the remaining cells that cannot be surgically removed. ISIS replaced AQAP in Iraq and Syria so it won't be long b4 another Jihadi jingoist group picks up arms against the west.
 
We need to defeat the ignorance and illiteracy in the region and provide stability and a European model of democracy there.

Agreed, but for that to happen, there needs to be order first, the situation needs to be stabilized. The biggest problem with the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns is that there were no contingency plans for nation building following them. How to do that successfully, I don't know, but I suspect it would take a good 30-40 year commitment at least. Hence why a neocolonialist approach might just be the solution.

[Lysistrata]

It's not the people, it's the religion that makes them bat-shit crazy mass murderers. They don't want to fix it, they don't want our help to fix it, so we really have no choice. We will not do nothing while they move in and execute our people. We can always drill through the glass to get the oil, so no loss there. I saw Obama and Putin talking today at G20... I wonder what they are coming up with?