237 replies to this topic

[Bill N Ted]

 

 

Europe is stronger together. That's my view in a nutshell. 

RIP EU. I thought you had great potential. Shame on Brits who voted to leave. You're all reactionary idiots. 

 

There there, there there, we are entitled to different views    

 

Again; if the EU had anything to offer it would have been a differently fought campaign; it would have been a positive campaign as opposed to "if you leave it will bring about the end of days" which we had in spades for months.  

 

Arguably the reacting was done by the legions of foreigners and British tax exiles (ie Richard Branson) that came to our shore threatening us with Armageddon and telling us how to vote or else, we just went to the ballot box and said no thanks.  

 

I don't understand what your issue is. 

 

My issue is that my vision of the future is one where borders become increasingly meaningless. That's been the trend for decades until now. Now nationalism and swastikas are back in style. 

 

 

My thought is that in the future borders will remain.  

Borders have existed for as long as people have been around to make them, personally I wouldn't bet against history.  

In my opinion borders are even more relevant now since globalization has taken off; without borders cultures and cultural identities get diluted and die, we are a tribal race, we almost always turn to our own.  

I personally have no wish to see my culture and its history die or be diluted to the point that its nonviable within a generation or two just because many millions in the third world would like to live here, they have their own cultures and identities, some of which it has become very apparent are at odds with the cultures and beliefs of the civilized world.  

[Fox Fire]

In my opinion borders are even more relevant now since globalization has taken off; without borders cultures and cultural identities get diluted and die,

 

But that is the whole point. The theory of multiculturalism is simply the idea of a melting pot. No culture is converted, but all are fused into one. Which if you ask me is not so bad. Sounds great actually. That's not to say we can't honor the past, nations of old or previous ancestry. It just means we get over our differences. The US is a great example of multiculturalism working just fine. Sure, we still have racial issues and probably always will, but we have a unique culture formed out of many. Whether you're black, white, Asian, even native or otherwise, if you live in the US, you likely share the same culture as any other American or at least a uniquely American sub-culture that was heavily influenced by all kinds of people. 

I personally have no wish to see my culture and its history die or be diluted to the point that its nonviable within a generation or two just because many millions in the third world would like to live here, they have their own cultures and identities, some of which it has become very apparent are at odds with the cultures and beliefs of the civilized world.  

 

But your culture has already died. By that I mean it's evolved into something unrecognizable from hundreds of years ago. That's what civilizations and cultures do. The whole war on terrorism is a direct effect of cultural evolution. It really all comes down to a handful of fundamentalists who hate change and progress. Meanwhile in Europe, most people are pretty open to change and progress (or at least were). Likely because Europe is the center of the world and has always been the center of progress. 

I can understand a desire to hold onto old values, concepts and pride. I'm against nationalism but I completely respect the old nationalists of my heritage (Irish). They fought and died for the freedom of my ancestors, but I don't let that glue me to past ideas. The older I get the more I dislike the concept of nationalism. It seems increasingly unnecessary when regardless of your nationality or race, we are all subject to the human condition. Societies only work when the people work together. I see only progress when that concept is taken to larger levels. 

[Bill N Ted]

 

In my opinion borders are even more relevant now since globalization has taken off; without borders cultures and cultural identities get diluted and die,

 

But that is the whole point. The theory of multiculturalism is simply the idea of a melting pot. No culture is converted, but all are fused into one. Which if you ask me is not so bad. Sounds great actually. That's not to say we can't honor the past, nations of old or previous ancestry. It just means we get over our differences. The US is a great example of multiculturalism working just fine. Sure, we still have racial issues and probably always will, but we have a unique culture formed out of many. Whether you're black, white, Asian, even native or otherwise, if you live in the US, you likely share the same culture as any other American or at least a uniquely American sub-culture that was heavily influenced by all kinds of people. 

 

I personally have no wish to see my culture and its history die or be diluted to the point that its nonviable within a generation or two just because many millions in the third world would like to live here, they have their own cultures and identities, some of which it has become very apparent are at odds with the cultures and beliefs of the civilized world.  

 

But your culture has already died. By that I mean it's evolved into something unrecognizable from hundreds of years ago. That's what civilizations and cultures do. The whole war on terrorism is a direct effect of cultural evolution. It really all comes down to a handful of fundamentalists who hate change and progress. Meanwhile in Europe, most people are pretty open to change and progress (or at least were). Likely because Europe is the center of the world and has always been the center of progress. 

I can understand a desire to hold onto old values, concepts and pride. I'm against nationalism but I completely respect the old nationalists of my heritage (Irish). They fought and died for the freedom of my ancestors, but I don't let that glue me to past ideas. The older I get the more I dislike the concept of nationalism. It seems increasingly unnecessary when regardless of your nationality or race, we are all subject to the human condition. Societies only work when the people work together. I see only progress when that concept is taken to larger levels. 

 

 

Multiculturalism ugghhhh.....  

 

The older I get, the more I see of multiculturalism and the "benefits" it brings to society, the more Nationalist I am becoming.  Really, I am not against immigrants; if you come here through legal means, do meaningful work, follow our laws and do not demand we change in order to accommodate you welcome aboard.  What I am against is the unchecked immigration of people who have no intention, language skills or ability to work, ignore our laws and demand we conform to them and act like a vampiric drain on already floundering social services and national infrastructure, Western leadership has no intention making them conform to any of that.  Not only is it allowing many thousands of these problems into Europe on a daily basis our rights are slowly being ebbed away by the politicians that go about signing free trade agreements 40 years ago that slowly congeal into the EU of today where only 40 years down the line we are reluctantly given a referendum on it; then people/foreigners such as yourself rock up with an opinion calling my beliefs and those of the majority in the UK idiotic from a few thousand miles away, with offerings of cultural and ethnic amalgamation and the ensuing racial tensions "that will probably never go away" because we have made a democratic choice to say no thanks.  

 

 

So I don't really think we will see eye to eye on multiculturalism

 

 

Is there anyone in the US that does not have some far flung link to being Irish?  

[Black Rook]

It's because we're the cool kids at the international table

[Shahenshah]

Yes and no (Re Scotland). We are not talking about 'normal' reactions here, but rather Scots reacting to a choice that was made for them (and against their popular will) by the English (ignoring the Welsh vote for a moment). If SNP spins it correctly and acts fast enough, the leave vote is quite plausible.





Except that net immigration from EU is less than that from the Commonwealth. Are you planing to propose that the Commonwealth be dissolved as well?




What has 'the third world' have to do with the Brexit vote?

The Scots voted to remain part of the UK. They voted knowing that there was going to be a UK/EU referendum coming up; they voted to remain in the UK and as a member of the UK. The UK held a democratic referendum and the UK as a whole voted to leave the EU.

I was upset under 13 years of New Labour. If the Scots want another referendum let them have it, its the SNP calling for it not necessarily the Scottish people. If Scotland tries to prevent or derail the results of a democratic vote by the Union as a whole I would be inclined to ask for a referendum on removing Scotland from the UK, same with Northern Ireland if they are so inclined - go rejoin Ireland and let us know how that works out.

I hope the Scottish people put Sturgeon back in her box.

I am not proposing an end to immigration from the commonwealth or its dissolution, merely an Australian style points system where you are allowed in if you are a benefit not a drag on the nation. Turn up on the beach claiming asylum? Where did you come from, how did you get here? So you walked though 6 EU member states for the "safety of the UK" which those states couldn't provide you? Deport them.

We are having a load of the third world dumped on us. EU resettlement and our own government allowing in these people. See EU resettlement quotas; these haven't come out yet but I am very interested to see what they will be in the coming months; good luck with that Europe. I don't care; fight for your freedoms, don't go holding out the beggar bowl to others; make the country one that you would want to live in rather than fleeing whatever third world shithole you are from and demanding the state your are resettled in comply to your customs and whims - you are a guest in this country and should act like one.

About the last part, rich, being that UK has been one the main instigator and participant of that conflict in that region. I would understand why say, Slovakia, would say, sure keep on going west.

The whole plot of let's overthrow Assad by arming up the extremists is now unravelling to its full extent. You reap what you sow? That's just act 2, act 1 was the Invasion of Iraq.

Easy to say stay and fight, while at the same time your govt was busy arming those who were actually doing the killing and destabilising the whole region.

Now, even the leading voices of brexit are back peddling.

I understand you saying keeping a check on immigrants, but it's just silly to say why they arent staying and fighting, fight who and for whomever? Western proxies? Regional proxies? (Overlap) Assad? Who to fight for here. What is Syria now but a rubble, dedtoryed by proxy warfare under the fertile conditions which are a direct outcome of Iraqi invasion. The butterfly affect. Here's the blow back for you mate. Unfortunate human tragedy in the end, for everyone, Refugees and the hosts.

"It wouldn't affect me because my country is bombing another one a few thousand miles away".





http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/world/europe/boris-johnson-brexit-leaders-eu.html
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/27/world/europe/having-won-some-brexit-campaigners-begin-backpedaling.html?referer=http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/29/world/europe/boris-johnson-brexit-leaders-eu.html

As said earlier, I agree completely with you regarding putting a tap on unchecked immigration. But I don't think you can judge the reasons of why some people would eventually choose to leave or stay in their homes or risk putting their family and babies on a dingy boat and get on with it.

[Icewolf]

So its Gove vs May for the leadership. Outside chance for Stephen Crabb. Liam Fox and Adrea Leadsom are not credible candidates in my opinion. 

 

(For those unfamiliar with conservative party rules, the MPs will vote on the 5 candidates. Whoever gets the lowest share is eliminated, and they have multiple votes until two are left. The membership then votes on those 2). 

 

Andrea Leadsom is a loathsome and pathetic figure. I don't see her getting traction. Liam Fox was sacked for corruption after an unremarkable 18 months in the cabinet, so he is out. Crab is on a rapid rise, but is young and inexperienced, and I don't think there is an appetite for more risk right now. 

 

The trouble is that both May and Gove have run government careers of driving reform in a brutally confrontational way, and making severe enemies of those they are supposed to be working with (the teaching profession in Gove's case, and the Police in May's case). Both have been more than willing to have fights, even when fighting does not represent the most effective way forward. Neither has ever demonstrated an ability to negotiate among equals and prefer to be hammering down from a position of power. That is not going to work well in a Brexit negotiation. 

[Finster Baby]

I'm curious as to what's going to happen to Jeremy Corbyn.

[onbekende]

Did Boris forget to set his alarm clock?

[ccabal86]

Did Boris forget to set his alarm clock?

 

I think he'd prefer a full cycle, which the next PM likely won't have. But who knows, we'll see.

[Blade 619]

 

No....that is directly in the context of you stating that working for the ERDF reminds you of Nazi Collaborators.    Either own your statement, in which case I will chalk you up as an utter piece of human shite, or apologise for it. Don't try some useless chickenshit "it was all out of context" when every person here can see exactly what context it was in and exactly what you said. 

Oh okay... let me make myself absolutely clear. A British citizen working for the European Union, for the purpose of weakening the sovereignty of the United Kingdom, and chaining the British people to European law, reminds me of a Nazi collaborating Jew in Warsaw Poland in 1940. Is that sufficient enough "owning" for you? I'm happy to hear you saved enough of the 30 pieces of silver to get you by until you find something more productive to do.

 

I'm an American, Capitalist, Conservative, Republican, Trump supporter... I already know what you think of me. Will I be asking your permission to post what something reminds me of in the future? No.

 

 

Godwin's Law has been activated.

 

Congratulations on losing the argument.

[Chaplain of death]

[Sister Midnight]

 

 

No....that is directly in the context of you stating that working for the ERDF reminds you of Nazi Collaborators.    Either own your statement, in which case I will chalk you up as an utter piece of human shite, or apologise for it. Don't try some useless chickenshit "it was all out of context" when every person here can see exactly what context it was in and exactly what you said. 

Oh okay... let me make myself absolutely clear. A British citizen working for the European Union, for the purpose of weakening the sovereignty of the United Kingdom, and chaining the British people to European law, reminds me of a Nazi collaborating Jew in Warsaw Poland in 1940. Is that sufficient enough "owning" for you? I'm happy to hear you saved enough of the 30 pieces of silver to get you by until you find something more productive to do.

 

I'm an American, Capitalist, Conservative, Republican, Trump supporter... I already know what you think of me. Will I be asking your permission to post what something reminds me of in the future? No.

 

 

Godwin's Law has been activated.

 

Congratulations on losing the argument.

 

 

DAMMIT!  You guys beat me to it!  BWAHAHAHAHA

 

[Icewolf]

Did Boris forget to set his alarm clock?

I think he'd prefer a full cycle, which the next PM likely won't have. But who knows, we'll see.

There was a poll out in the times today showing his support among party members in rapid decline. Most of his core campaign staff also switched to Gove on Wednesday night. He didn't have anywhere to go with this.

[onbekende]

Heard the Gove guy pretty much backstabbed him with his desire to run for party leader.

 

Guess Bris now knows how Cameron must have felt

[Icewolf]

Well...not just Gove. Essentially all the campaign staff as well

[Icewolf]

So the pound is now at $1.30, the FTSE 250 is still in the doldrums, my cities largest employer just very publicly declared they are fucked as the commercial property market has tanked (really saying people are not liking the look of the UK right now). 

 

Meanwhile the Brexit leaders have either self-destructed or legged it, giving an increasing feeling that after the children have taken a massive shit on the floor it is now up to the grown ups to get us out of this fucking. 

[Finster Baby]

Is Corbin sacked yet?

[Icewolf]

Can't be sacked and the parliamentary party doesn't command enough support in the membership to pull off a challenge.

[Finster Baby]

Could you imagine if the Tories lost the next election and tha guy is PM?

He's got all the personality of a limp noodle.

[Icewolf]

I think it is highly unlikely that the Tories will lose the next election whilst Corbyn remains in charge. Not because Corbyn is unelectable, but because he can't construct a team around him that people would trust in government. That said, if you said to me last August that Cameron, Farage, Gove, Osbourne and Johnson would all have cratered their political careers I wouldn't have believed you either.