237 replies to this topic

[ccabal86]

So I seen this on Facebook from one of my buddies arguing with someone and wanted to know how true of a statement this is? It would put me as an American in a position to somewhat understand Britain and EU's relationship.
Americans Guide to understanding why Brits are happy without the EU:
Imagine if America was part of a Union where it spends $48 Million USD a week, US senators are constantly voted against, over 60% of US Laws are made in Cuba and those laws even override the US Constitution. Mexico and Canada have unrestricted immigration access to the US even if they have criminal records. And one day you break free from all of that now would you not be happy also?
(Disclaimer: We are aware the US would be in open civil war at even the suggestion of that type of Union).

 
This is by far the most ignorant and useless comparison made. Whomever posted that, has clearly no idea whatsoever on how the EU works.
 

The real mistake was putting it up for a vote. David Cameron will go down in history as an idiot, but that's of little consolation.
On the other hand the EU should have known better. There is a reason the average European has a disfavorable view of it, which despite repeated PR campaigns had only gotten worse over the decades.
 
 
 
System of electors in the US... hello?!
 
Did you vote for every member of Hungarian Government as well? If you didn't then your point is moot. When you are trying to apply that requirement for the EU Commission, first apply it to your political system and once you do that, then come back and start pointing fingers.
Exactly my point I'm trying to make. By the time someone is voted on the European Council Commission, the chain is so far off from the popular vote that it can hardly be called a popular vote. Which I'm actually FINE with, because democracy (as evidenced here) certainly has its limits.
 
What I'm trying to do though, is make sense of onbekende's magical world where the EU is a democratic institution focused of social welfare and well-being, where he voted on his Belgian councilor. I suspect false perceptions like that are actually quite widespread and had a good part in the Brexit as well.

 
Oh, I know what you were trying to do. But to be honest I think it was not the best way to go about it. Is there a lack of democratic accountability in the EU. Yes, absolutely.
 
But saying that the EU is undemocratic or that it is not democratic is also not true.

What I was trying to say is that perception seems to be either:

1) The EU is the Third Reich reborn
2) The EU is the epitome of Democracy

Neither is true. If you ask me, the REAL problem is that EU representation from top to bottom consists of second and thrid tier national politicians. Essentially if they don't have the qualities to make it domestically, they'll still suffice for Brussels. And this shows.

[Theophilos]

 

What I was trying to say is that perception seems to be either:

1) The EU is the Third Reich reborn
2) The EU is the epitome of Democracy

Neither is true. If you ask me, the REAL problem is that EU representation from top to bottom consists of second and thrid tier national politicians. Essentially if they don't have the qualities to make it domestically, they'll still suffice for Brussels. And this shows.

 

 

Agreed.

 

But what seemed to come from your posts was more the supposed undemocratic nature of the EU. My bad

[Samus]

By all means. Do remember that, when Britain starts begging to be let back in and the 27 start laughing

You're starting to sound like you're a Brit who voted remain lol

[ccabal86]

I am not proposing an end to immigration from the commonwealth or its dissolution, merely an Australian style points system where you are allowed in if you are a benefit not a drag on the nation. Turn up on the beach claiming asylum? Where did you come from, how did you get here? So you walked though 6 EU member states for the "safety of the UK" which those states couldn't provide you? Deport them.

We are having a load of the third world dumped on us. EU resettlement and our own government allowing in these people. See EU resettlement quotas; these haven't come out yet but I am very interested to see what they will be in the coming months; good luck with that Europe. I don't care; fight for your freedoms, don't go holding out the beggar bowl to others; make the country one that you would want to live in rather than fleeing whatever third world shithole you are from and demanding the state your are resettled in comply to your customs and whims - you are a guest in this country and should act like one.

This right here is my biggest gripe with the EU. When Tony Abbott proposed that Europe introduce something like the Ausralian system, it was brushed off the table. The solution would have been to band together with like-minded nations on this issue (Denmark, Netherlands, CEE region) to defeat the regressive left for a workable, common solution. Instead, you chose to leave, which may mean that you've just given them the game.

[Theophilos]

 

By all means. Do remember that, when Britain starts begging to be let back in and the 27 start laughing

You're starting to sound like you're a Brit who voted remain lol

 

 

Not really. If I was a Brit, I would almost without doubt have voted to Leave...

[Wolfpacks]

Look the vote is done and the Brexit won now as a nation we have to get together and get this great land of ours going again. We survived for years before we joined the union and we will survive again. Politicians always bullshit to get their own way so maybe it's not as bad as some think it is.

[Lysistrata]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Wow... this would be an insane move. The government calls a vote, then nullifies the vote, raises the bar, holds another vote, because they don't like the outcome of the first vote? This would mean open civil war... and the main reason why the USA will never give up our guns. It would validate all assumption that the UK cannot trust their government. You guys think you will have a rough patch? Do this, and you'll have much more than that for sure.

 

Hey Theo... I'm not a Fascist... I'm a Capitalist. I don't believe the EU is the best thing for the UK, or Germany, or France, or any member nation that can do much better without it. It doesn't matter what reasons they have for pulling out. They can just not want to be in it anymore. Cut the umbilical cord, and breathe. You might just like the feeling.

[Samus]

It's not the government though.. It's the people who are signing those petitions. Obviously they've had a change of mind after seeing the lies these politicians spew.

 

imo Leave party are bloody liars and I do not trust their government setup one bit.

 

e.g

 

 

 

'I think they made a mistake'

 

Bastards.

 

 

By all means. Do remember that, when Britain starts begging to be let back in and the 27 start laughing

You're starting to sound like you're a Brit who voted remain lol

 

 

Not really. If I was a Brit, I would almost without doubt have voted to Leave...

 

lol contradicting yourself or what?

[onbekende]

Fun fact:

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

 

Read this, it is the guy who started that petition, OVER 1 MONTH AGO, he is on the LEAVE side!

 

I lol'ed

 

 

(btw, I already agree that the turnout is excellent, sure it aint Belgian +95% levels, but more people went to vote then in the last election in the UK, thats says plenty)

[Bill N Ted]

 

I hope the Scottish people put Sturgeon back in her box.  

 

I am not proposing an end to immigration from the commonwealth or its dissolution, merely an Australian style points system where you are allowed in if you are a benefit not a drag on the nation.  Turn up on the beach claiming asylum?  Where did you come from, how did you get here?  So you walked though 6 EU member states for the "safety of the UK" which those states couldn't provide you? Deport them.

 

Again, you are making a pointless argument. Reread my post and then address the points I made - namely that your claim re immigration from EU is false and factualy wrong. I don't care much about what kind of system you want or not, that's entirely up to the UK, personally I couldn't care less, but I do care about untrutfull statements.

 

We are having a load of the third world dumped on us.  EU resettlement and our own government allowing in these people.  See EU resettlement quotas; these haven't come out yet but I am very interested to see what they will be in the coming months; good luck with that Europe.  I don't care; fight for your freedoms, don't go holding out the beggar bowl to others; make the country one that you would want to live in rather than fleeing whatever third world shithole you are from and demanding the state your are resettled in comply to your customs and whims - you are a guest in this country and should act like one.

 

Again, an utrutful statement. EU resetlement wise - Relocations from Greece and Italy by 11 April 2016 to UK add up to a whopping 0.

 

Pledges made (freely) by the UK re refugees amount to a huge and completly overwhelming 2200 refugees. Out fo that pledge 1864 refugees have been resettled. It breaks my heart that the UK can not take care of such incredeably large numbers >.>

 

Seriously, I don't care if you allow no immigrants or only quotas. Do whatever you want it's your country. But do not post untrutful statements.

 

 

 

A case of definitions maybe.  

 

As stated previously I am not against the migration of people that would bring a benefit to the nation, what I am against is illegal EU migration into the UK.  By "immigration from the EU into the UK" I mean the undocumented immigrants that pass through the EU, often illegally as they are bound to document their asylum claims at the first EU country they reach, usually the Southern EU states.  They are to be processed, claims looked over.

 

This often does not happen; I believe its called the Dublin system.  What then happens due to the Schengen area is these people move through the EU unchecked, undocumented and in an uncontrolled manner due to no border controls.  This is a failure of EU law and national law that permits this to happen.  

 

You then have many congregating in northern France that attempt to make the crossing into the UK.  Either by the channel tunnel, boarding UK bound freight lorries, (2), (3), or rocking up in a boat or attempting to swim the channel.  As for the people jumping into the lorries when they arrive in the UK they then become our problem and often the transport companies are left with fines for having migrants aboard when the port of Calais is like Mad Max.  By "dumped on us" maybe a better term would have been "having multiple EU countries turn a blind eye to the legal obligations of the migrants to register themselves and the multiple police forces within the EU turning a blind eye to the fact that these are unregistered migrants and thus have no idea who is in their countries that ultimately end up on our shores claiming asylum".  

 

These people haven't gone partying to Magaluf; had a great weekend and lost their passport.  Total economic migrants; not that I care much for the genuine migrants.  These people are ignored and are not processed in France, nor any other EU nation and are allowed to continue on their way lest they become someone else's (French/transit countries) official problem.

 

The amount of people that have been voluntarily let into the country by my government are spit in the ocean.  The people arriving via the above points or overstaying visas has been put at anywhere between 417,000 and 863,000 as of 2007 by the London School of Economics; this is obviously rather old now with migration having accelerated further in the past 9 years.  

 

Its rather hard to quantify the numbers given the obvious illegal methods of entry used and then these people obviously want to keep under the radar.  

 

I hope my definition clarification of immigration from the EU helps, if not I have little doubt that you will ask further

[Samus]

Fun fact:

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

 

Read this, it is the guy who started that petition, OVER 1 MONTH AGO, he is on the LEAVE side!

 

I lol'ed

 

 

(btw, I already agree that the turnout is excellent, sure it aint Belgian +95% levels, but more people went to vote then in the last election in the UK, thats says plenty)

 that backfired lmao

[Bill N Ted]

Fun fact:

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

 

Read this, it is the guy who started that petition, OVER 1 MONTH AGO, he is on the LEAVE side!

 

I lol'ed

 

 

(btw, I already agree that the turnout is excellent, sure it aint Belgian +95% levels, but more people went to vote then in the last election in the UK, thats says plenty)

 

I laughed at this too.   

 

However..... 

 

 

"It also emerged today that the founder of the petition, which demands a re-count of the referendum because turnout was less than 75 per cent and the margin of victory was smaller than 20 per cent, is a Brexit supporter. 

 

William Oliver Healey, a final year student at De Montfort University, set up the petition in case the Leave campaign lost by s slim margin but ironically it was hijacked by Remain supporters after Thursday's 4 per cent win for Brexit.  

However, among the backers are people in the United States, Germany, France and even Syria.

More than 40,000 signatures come from people who said they live in Vatican City - a tiny state with just 800 residents. Civil servants are now investigating allegations of fraudulent sign-ups."

 

Dailymail; your voice of reason   

 

[Theophilos]

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Wow... this would be an insane move. The government calls a vote, then nullifies the vote, raises the bar, holds another vote, because they don't like the outcome of the first vote? This would mean open civil war... and the main reason why the USA will never give up our guns. It would validate all assumption that the UK cannot trust their government. You guys think you will have a rough patch? Do this, and you'll have much more than that for sure.

 

Hey Theo... I'm not a Fascist... I'm a Capitalist. I don't believe the EU is the best thing for the UK, or Germany, or France, or any member nation that can do much better without it. It doesn't matter what reasons they have for pulling out. They can just not want to be in it anymore. Cut the umbilical cord, and breathe. You might just like the feeling.

 

 

Thing is... I know you are not I simply applied your argument from a post above and that's the result

 

Let's leave the "reductio ad absurdum" out of discussion's such as this shall we?

It's not the government though.. It's the people who are signing those petitions. Obviously they've had a change of mind after seeing the lies these politicians spew.

 

imo Leave party are bloody liars and I do not trust their government setup one bit.

 

e.g

 

 

 

'I think they made a mistake'

 

Bastards.

 

 

By all means. Do remember that, when Britain starts begging to be let back in and the 27 start laughing

You're starting to sound like you're a Brit who voted remain lol

 

 

Not really. If I was a Brit, I would almost without doubt have voted to Leave...

 

lol contradicting yourself or what?

 

Nope the post about the 27 is the most likely reality (not an opinion). Me voting as if I were a citizen of UK is my opinion and in such a case I would most likely vote Leave.

[onbekende]

 

Fun fact:

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

 

Read this, it is the guy who started that petition, OVER 1 MONTH AGO, he is on the LEAVE side!

 

I lol'ed

 

 

(btw, I already agree that the turnout is excellent, sure it aint Belgian +95% levels, but more people went to vote then in the last election in the UK, thats says plenty)

 that backfired lmao

 

 

So could this (Farage wanting second referendum if vote is 52% for Remain)

 

 

Fun fact:

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

 

Read this, it is the guy who started that petition, OVER 1 MONTH AGO, he is on the LEAVE side!

 

I lol'ed

 

 

(btw, I already agree that the turnout is excellent, sure it aint Belgian +95% levels, but more people went to vote then in the last election in the UK, thats says plenty)

 

I laughed at this too.   

 

However..... 

 

 

"It also emerged today that the founder of the petition, which demands a re-count of the referendum because turnout was less than 75 per cent and the margin of victory was smaller than 20 per cent, is a Brexit supporter. 

 

William Oliver Healey, a final year student at De Montfort University, set up the petition in case the Leave campaign lost by s slim margin but ironically it was hijacked by Remain supporters after Thursday's 4 per cent win for Brexit.  

However, among the backers are people in the United States, Germany, France and even Syria.

More than 40,000 signatures come from people who said they live in Vatican City - a tiny state with just 800 residents. Civil servants are now investigating allegations of fraudulent sign-ups."

 

Dailymail; your voice of reason   

 

 

well it is the internet, wouldn't be surprised if some marked themselfes as being from Coruscant...

[Theophilos]

 

 

I hope the Scottish people put Sturgeon back in her box.  

 

I am not proposing an end to immigration from the commonwealth or its dissolution, merely an Australian style points system where you are allowed in if you are a benefit not a drag on the nation.  Turn up on the beach claiming asylum?  Where did you come from, how did you get here?  So you walked though 6 EU member states for the "safety of the UK" which those states couldn't provide you? Deport them.

 

Again, you are making a pointless argument. Reread my post and then address the points I made - namely that your claim re immigration from EU is false and factualy wrong. I don't care much about what kind of system you want or not, that's entirely up to the UK, personally I couldn't care less, but I do care about untrutfull statements.

 

We are having a load of the third world dumped on us.  EU resettlement and our own government allowing in these people.  See EU resettlement quotas; these haven't come out yet but I am very interested to see what they will be in the coming months; good luck with that Europe.  I don't care; fight for your freedoms, don't go holding out the beggar bowl to others; make the country one that you would want to live in rather than fleeing whatever third world shithole you are from and demanding the state your are resettled in comply to your customs and whims - you are a guest in this country and should act like one.

 

Again, an utrutful statement. EU resetlement wise - Relocations from Greece and Italy by 11 April 2016 to UK add up to a whopping 0.

 

Pledges made (freely) by the UK re refugees amount to a huge and completly overwhelming 2200 refugees. Out fo that pledge 1864 refugees have been resettled. It breaks my heart that the UK can not take care of such incredeably large numbers >.>

 

Seriously, I don't care if you allow no immigrants or only quotas. Do whatever you want it's your country. But do not post untrutful statements.

 

 

 

A case of definitions maybe.  

 

As stated previously I am not against the migration of people that would bring a benefit to the nation, what I am against is illegal EU migration into the UK.  By "immigration from the EU into the UK" I mean the undocumented immigrants that pass through the EU, often illegally as they are bound to document their asylum claims at the first EU country they reach, usually the Southern EU states.  They are to be processed, claims looked over.

 

This often does not happen; I believe its called the Dublin system.  What then happens due to the Schengen area is these people move through the EU unchecked, undocumented and in an uncontrolled manner due to no border controls.  This is a failure of EU law and national law that permits this to happen.  

 

You then have many congregating in northern France that attempt to make the crossing into the UK.  Either by the channel tunnel, boarding UK bound freight lorries, (2), (3), or rocking up in a boat or attempting to swim the channel.  As for the people jumping into the lorries when they arrive in the UK they then become our problem and often the transport companies are left with fines for having migrants aboard when the port of Calais is like Mad Max.  By "dumped on us" maybe a better term would have been "having multiple EU countries turn a blind eye to the legal obligations of the migrants to register themselves and the multiple police forces within the EU turning a blind eye to the fact that these are unregistered migrants and thus have no idea who is in their countries that ultimately end up on our shores claiming asylum".  

 

These people haven't gone partying to Magaluf; had a great weekend and lost their passport.  Total economic migrants; not that I care much for the genuine migrants.  These people are ignored and are not processed in France, nor any other EU nation and are allowed to continue on their way lest they become someone else's (French/transit countries) official problem.

 

The amount of people that have been voluntarily let into the country by my government are spit in the ocean.  The people arriving via the above points or overstaying visas has been put at anywhere between 417,000 and 863,000 as of 2007 by the London School of Economics; this is obviously rather old now with migration having accelerated further in the past 9 years.  

 

Its rather hard to quantify the numbers given the obvious illegal methods of entry used and then these people obviously want to keep under the radar.  

 

I hope my definition clarification of immigration from the EU helps, if not I have little doubt that you will ask further

 

 

Aha! This is more like it. Ya, I agree, this (above) is clearly a failure of the EU and a number of Member States. Fair point, as I more or less with what you said, I have nothing to add

[Samus]

Nope the post about the 27 is the most likely reality (not an opinion). Me voting as if I were a citizen of UK is my opinion and in such a case I would most likely vote Leave.

 

My point is, you would vote Leave as a citizen, but as a non-citizen your other posts have been condemning the UK for its decision. Which is what i'm confused at

[Theophilos]

 

Nope the post about the 27 is the most likely reality (not an opinion). Me voting as if I were a citizen of UK is my opinion and in such a case I would most likely vote Leave.

 

My point is, you would vote Leave as a citizen, but as a non-citizen your other posts have been condemning the UK for its decision. Which is what i'm confused at

 

 

I'm not condeming the decision as such, what I profoundly disagree with is the reasoning that was used by the 'leave camp' to propagate the leave vote. Not that the remain camp was unproblematic...

[Icewolf]

 

So delivering innovation hubs and start up enterprise support, along with training for socially excluded persons to help them get back to the job market is the same as collaborating with Nazis to commit an act of mass murder?    Christ...there is some dumb shit posted here but that really takes the piss.

Obviously, taken completely out of context. You are a British citizen, working in the UK, for the Europeans, enforcing European will. I can understand why many of your own people would not trust you. They view it as a foreign government. Cry xenophobia... that'll work.

 

No....that is directly in the context of you stating that working for the ERDF reminds you of Nazi Collaborators. 

 

Either own your statement, in which case I will chalk you up as an utter piece of human shite, or apologise for it. Don't try some useless chickenshit "it was all out of context" when every person here can see exactly what context it was in and exactly what you said. 

 

 

In other news, Sterling continues its fall, and the Brexit camps promises have gone from promising that everything would be made of gold in our glorious days of freedom to....well actually nothing. Seems there is a clear passage towards a Swiss or Norway type of arrangement were you exclude yourself from the Parliament and Council of Ministers but still pay into the EU budget and accept the overwhelming majority of EU law...hrmmmm. "Take Control" anyone? 

 

Even Boris Johnson is now promising free movement will remain. 

 

Meanwhile 1/3rd of firms surveyed by the institute of directors have announced 1/3rd of their members are planning recruitment freezes...just what this years crop of graduates and school leavers wanted to hear. 

[Lysistrata]

No....that is directly in the context of you stating that working for the ERDF reminds you of Nazi Collaborators.    Either own your statement, in which case I will chalk you up as an utter piece of human shite, or apologise for it. Don't try some useless chickenshit "it was all out of context" when every person here can see exactly what context it was in and exactly what you said. 

Oh okay... let me make myself absolutely clear. A British citizen working for the European Union, for the purpose of weakening the sovereignty of the United Kingdom, and chaining the British people to European law, reminds me of a Nazi collaborating Jew in Warsaw Poland in 1940. Is that sufficient enough "owning" for you? I'm happy to hear you saved enough of the 30 pieces of silver to get you by until you find something more productive to do.

 

I'm an American, Capitalist, Conservative, Republican, Trump supporter... I already know what you think of me. Will I be asking your permission to post what something reminds me of in the future? No.

[Black Rook]

No....that is directly in the context of you stating that working for the ERDF reminds you of Nazi Collaborators. Either own your statement, in which case I will chalk you up as an utter piece of human shite, or apologise for it. Don't try some useless chickenshit "it was all out of context" when every person here can see exactly what context it was in and exactly what you said.

Oh okay... let me make myself absolutely clear. A British citizen working for the European Union, for the purpose of weakening the sovereignty of the United Kingdom, and chaining the British people to European law, reminds me of a Nazi collaborating Jew in Warsaw Poland in 1940. Is that sufficient enough "owning" for you? I'm happy to hear you saved enough of the 30 pieces of silver to get you by until you find something more productive to do.

I'm an American, Capitalist, Conservative, Republican, Trump supporter... I already know what you think of me. Will I be asking your permission to post what something reminds me of in the future? No.

Why couldn't you just call him judas then? Or a traitor, why did you have to bring nazi Germany into it. Is it because the EU reminds you of Nazi Germany? If so I'd like to say trump reminds me of Hitler so have fun with that.