Lyner

I'd put Roq to the most credible town with that claim there Also I'm getting pessimistic that we have any cops beside Mand this game Let's wrap up today?

Does that mean that you're in? Yes plz

Did we break the simultaneous games record?

Where is our obligatory no-lynch day 1 discussion? Actually this is pretty important since we might potentially lynch a cop I believe it is better to not to lynch anyone today: Vote: No Lynch Also is that your profile, Kevin?

- My other 2 scum would be Lyner (he's constantly saying something along the lines of "yeah <name> was probably right and COD and me were just 2 townies fighting", although the lynch wagon on him is a bit weird. But they could've had 1 scum waiting to vote Kazio to be sure or just thrusted me to have the hammer vote. If he's scum iSoc and FB are town. Which leaves Rafay and Yehom (both on d3mon and now both on Rhizo's wagon). Basicly both of them can be scum, only one or none (depends who/if from Robert and Avater are scum). They can really be both scum as they both haven't helped much on the scum hunt (same can be said of course from the other 2)... My guess would be Rafay is the most probable scum as he's been pushy to lynch inactives, which he hasn't been in other games. Since you're a verified townie I'll do my best to cast away those suspicion Citations, please? I only said this once, and it was today after Imran was revealed as town, as I was quoting from him, and it was for the purpose of reinforcing that Imran might have been correct that Rhizo is scum, as he was correct about me and CoD. Another reason for my not-scumminess is that I have been antagonizing Canik-FB-CoD since day two. If I was a scum, I'd be wiser than accusing three people at the same time without proper support from my "scum friends" so early(there are 19 people here) in the game, while I could just sit around and watch Imran kill Canik/Rhizo. There are too many inactives in this game that it'll be too easy to blend in Since you're so enthusiastic about day 2, let's check it out: If I was scum I have been antagonizing Canik-FB-CoD since day two. I'd be wiser than accusing three people at the same time without proper support from my "scum friends" so early(there are 19 people here) in the game, while I could just sit around and watch Imran kill Canik/Rhizo. There are too many inactives in this game that it'll be too easy to blend in The key point here is that if I was scum, I'd just stay pushing on Canik instead of calling for more attention from the others. Your point about my lynch wagon is correct if I was scum, but what if I wasn't scum? Here you go: If I was town Which would benefit more for scums, killing a Lyner, or a d3mon? (assuming both are towns), please forget your knowledge since the end of day two for this example. Benefits for killing a Lyner: - The scums who are on the Lyner wagon will be suspected - Certainly not a cop, as my "soft claim" indicates - If Canik/FB/CoD were townies, they will be suspected by town thus scum'd prefer this Benefits for killing a d3mon: - Less suspicions on the wagon since killing an inactive is "legitimate town move" confirmed by both towns(KevinH and Mand) - Possible cop - If Canik/FB/CoD were townies, it'd be better to leave Lyner alives to let them fight against each other Please contribute to the list if you have some insights From those points, I think it is safe to conclude that whether I'm scum or town, lynching d3mon is far more preferrable for scums (well of course a kill is still better than a no lynch for scums too) Addendum: A paragraph got copy pasted and I forgot to delete it, please don't mind the first one as the second one explains it more clearly

Yes

Scum might be able to track down the cop, but in just two nights? I think it's pretty difficult Another workaround is that the cop doesn't necessarily need to give the town his true infos, a.k.a they may lie around until the moment he claims the cop role The risk with this is if the cop got killed during the 2nd night, the town might be left with an unconfirmed opinion of the cop during the 2nd day

Well seems good I guess, post your thoughts at each start of the day Not a really bad start from Rafay, so: Unvote

Almost sounds like his scum friends gave him this information from the mafia talk Anyway I think Imran got killed because scum suspected he's some sort of cop, since he has been adamant on killing Rhizo since day 2 (difficult not to miss some posts, please correct me on this one). The lynch of King Hitler on night 2 also indicated that scums're searching for cop. If we agree on this line of thoughts then Imran was right on Rhizo being scum, and scums thought about "getting rid of Imran before he can spill more informations today". Apparently he's not a cop.

There, fixed. Happy? In my post before I only said you accused CoD, I just didn't word that one sentence perfectly. But go ahead and jump all over it like it's a big deal. Everyone has made some poorly worded statements. Some worse than others, sort of. I find it interesting you still have nothing to report. It's day 4 now and we could use more info. What's with the desperation? We just want to have some clarity here I choose to report whenever I feel it would benefits the town, apparently now is not the time. Anyway, shouldn't you answer that question yourself? So we should trust people who make bad, town crippling decisions and not listen to the people who have fought against those decisions? Gotcha. I'm only saying that correctly calling certain someone is townie beforehand gives you no town credit whatsoever but you're acting like it should give you some credibility Exactly, that's why I'm still hesitating even now Pretty accurate skimming I'd say No I haven't stated any suspicious thing from Rhizo, I didn't give him any town credits either(I did state that he didn't help the town at all yesterday. He's just lower in my lynch priority list yesterday. Today with Imran revealed as town I'm not so sure. Note that you and FB are still on the top on my lynch priority list, but apparently "town" needs some concrete infos before we can round up both of you

My reasoning as to why Imran and CoD were killed is that reasonable scum will not: - kill inactives - kill guys that are on a bandwagon that has just lynched townie That leaves just a handful of us to choose from. I'll leave the universal fact "if you were not targeted then you can be scum" aside because it applies to everyone so it's useless on its own. - Canik, Finster are lynch-worthy to some, so they're low priority - Lyner, you're kind of similar - iSoc hasn't been helping town much so why kill him, he'll be suspicious. That leaves me, Imran, CoD, Mandarjin: - here I think it was random choice, as for instance both me and Imran had the same targets. - Maybe Mandarjin was less aggressive and therefore less dangerous when "ringleaders" are elminated? - Maybe I live because they've checked me and decided my role is not threatening? Second kill this night points to the possibility that scums have JOAT role among them, so they could have investigated some of us. That was something Rhizo used as an argument when accusing Mandarjin (which can be viewed both ways). While it's technically possible that Mandarjin is a scum JOAT along with his scum friend KevihH (or he's trolling the game) I find it so much risky and prone to backfire that it's not worthy to consider - simply because if they are and noone is able to verify them then town sucks and deserves to loose. Imran and CoD are the most active players too so that might be another reason. CoD kill still doesn't make sense, wouldn't scum be happy if I'm fighting with CoD again today? Well they can frame me but that is pretty weak. If scum have a fake role given by the mod then it is plausible that Mand-Kevin and perhaps Rhizo are working together. Nobody have claimed any roles since the two of them so the probabilty of that happening is low I guess I was about to accuse Rhizo as well but the sudden wagon on him, plus both Canik and FB voting together.... this is too fishy Nonetheless, Imran was right on CoD & me as townies bickering with each other so perhaps I can trust him in this one. I didn't feel comfortable putting Rhizo at -1 this early because of the super quick wagon, "as if scums want to end this quickly and win tomorrow" kind of uncomfortable feeling, so I will hold off the vote for now. And can you stop lying and misleading the town, Canik? Calling someone as a townie and getting it right doesn't prove anything, if anything, only scums know that information. About the lying, you're putting a false statement. I was inline with Imran, albeit a different priority on who to lynch. This and this confirm Imran's position on the matter, you and Rhizo are on his lynch list, with FB trying to bus you yesterday. The only difference is Imran put the priority on the Rhizo lynch instead of you, Canik. For @Finster Baby, if you're truly town and feel that Canik is scummy, don't you find it suspicious that Canik is voting for Rhizo?

lmao Too bad for Rafay but I agree with AbT, you need to talk more or it will hurt town in the long run Vote: Rafay Yes we should let cop investigate for at least two nights, let's hope he is good

Yehom probably has conditional abilities like even/odd Also no one has definite infos yet? I hope the town is ready to unite with me. I keep defending townies, NOT voting for them, easily one of the most active in scum hunting. CoD who saw things as I did and worked with me yesterday has been proven town. Lyner called him scum, and was wrong. I called him probably town, and was right. I was right about Kaz, d3mon. Please, if you are town, support me today. Make sure Rhizo is lynched at the end of the day (barring some irrefutable evidence proving his innocence). Lyner/iSocialism. I would welcome your votes & support against Rhizo too. It's not written in stone that you'll be next. Though if you don't support us, it's extremely likely you will be. Scummy in every sentences. Scums know which ones are townies and which are not. I think the most important thing to discuss right now is why scums chose Imran and CoD

I used analogy to make my point, in this case it means "You're obviously a scum that's trying to confuse the town, arguing with you will only make town get more confused, I will let the town judges instead.". Come on [ooc]yes I picked that specific one to bait some reactions but that's all in game, wrong choice, my bad[/ooc] It's never personal in mafia You never once commented on why Rhizo is scum besides that he might be the vanilla scum. AbT, Imran, and Canik all pointed to Rhizo's scummy behaviour and just citing VT as another justification to lynch him, but you didn't. You used the uncertain fact that "the only vanilla must be a scum!" as your sole reason to lynch Rhizo.

[OOC] Also I apologize if my analogy is a bit extreme, this bit: have the exact same meaning one as your statement, no insult intended: [/OOC]

I have made all reasonings available from my former posts, please read them again if you actually care Also glad that you've come to the same decision as mine at post #542

If Rhizo is not scum then he is a VT. Why would the scum wagon together to lynch a VT when there are better options of Canik or d3mon with probably power roles? Under the assumption that Rhizo is VT and Canik is scum, here is the reasoning: During the time when Canik wagon is the leading one(page #26), AbT shifted to vote Rhizo. This is followed by Canik. This implied he's saving himself. You put another vote to Rhizo, thus giving Canik more justification. Therefore it is an act of saving himself. He'd rather have a vanilla dead rather than him. If the wagon succeeded and Rhizo is turned out as town, you will be the most suspicious one(as the most vocal one) instead of Canik. Win-win condition for scum Canik.

Also iSoc, since we're talking about people voting for someone while saying they suspect someone else more. No offense but arguing with a crazy person to prove that he is insane is a useless effort, there must be a third party to judge, and your claim of "logically sound argument" isn't sound at all, as you repeatedly ignore my reasoning. I clearly stated that you, Canik, and Finster is my suspects. Canik is my first priority since he's the key here. The wagon failed and since AbT is arousing another wagon to lynch another of my suspect, it's logical to support him. Clear difference from Finster's condition Good thing that you're confused with AbT's sudden change, just another reason that you're not paying attention to what people're talking about, also a scum tell Also this is a team game, if I have multiple votes I'd vote all of you, but apparently I need townies' support Hehe, I do think it's funny/interesting that Lyner was saying "the Rhizo discussion is a distraction". He is acting strangely ignorant at times. I mean, you can argue lynching an inactive first would be BETTER, but how do you deny the logic of the role madness theory? Virtually everyone else seems to get it, including virtually confirmed towns, such as Kevin. He just thinks inactive first would be better. Another distortion of truth? Unless you skipped through the first post of this thread, it is clear that TW specifically posted which roles may appear and which may not. Vanilla Townie is included. Even in a role madness game, there is no rule that there must be NO VANILLA TOWNIE, in fact, once again I quote Kevin's last game since it is counted as a role madness game there are roles such as Neapolitan that interacts with a vanilla(yes Neapolitan is also included in the opening post). -------------------------------------- Anyway, it doesn't even matter if there is a vanilla townie or not, that's not even my argument. Can you guys actually respond to my argument? The main reason I suspected CoD is that he votes for Rhizo NOT FOR HIS GAMEPLAY, but for the BELIEF THAT THERE IS NO VANILLA TOWNIE. Sure you can guess, but a certainty that warrants a kill? Nope, typical scum play. And iSoc made a good argument, d3mon has already passed the majority vote, if I'm on the Rhizo's team I would further advocate the "kill inactive first" so we can end this day quickly. Apparently nope, if we can't get a scum kill I'd rather have a safe kill. I'll repeat this again, the sole reason I didn't vote for Rhizo is because you scums are wagoning to kill Rhizo. I don't care about Rhizo since he isn't even actively scum hunting and only defending his life

Good move by AbT Finster is a good choice, we only have a few days though so please make your decision, town. Vote: Finster Baby His behaviour the past two days: 1. He clearly picks Shah's side during the Shah/Imran/AbT debacle, shown by this post 2. When Shah is replaced by Canik, however, he said he'd support AbT's accusation on Shah if it is still Shah who's playing(Canik replaced Shah). He later amended his statement that Imran is still scummier than Shah/Canik, so he's not changing his vote. 3. FB joins the Lyner wagon instantly, citing his reason as the same as Canik's. There're 2 scum tells here: First, he should've done that by himself before Canik said it, if he truly felt that my statement is a sign of scum, the fact that he didn't means he's just following Canik. Second, this is the same person who still didn't change his vote when he's clearly given a good argument of Shah's wrongdoing(and he even acknowledged that the argument is correct). Yet when it comes to my wagon, he changed his vote so easily? 4. The second day, he completely changed his opinion without any additional information, citing that my night actions are "consistent" as the reason, whatever that could mean. Also I encourage the townies to link the relevant posts when you're accusing someone with his past posts, use the search function on the guy's name and search in the Mafia board @CoD I'm done speaking with you in a logical fashion, I'll let the town decides your sanity

There goes the the steam, congrats for surviving, Canik I still can't agree to lynch Rhizo since both of my suspects (Canik and CoD) are joining the wagon, reeks too much. If all four of you are scums though, town pretty much already lost. Vote: d3mon

Yez X is a shared variable? Does each of them power roles know the current number of X at later nights?

lol what? There are are 11 town (assuming 5 scum), the lack of motivations to lynch me seems to suggest your arguments just aren't that strong. There are 4 inactives so the actual active townies excluding you and I are mere 5 people, and half of them are distracted with the Rhizo debacle Actually it doesn't matter, my statement stands that scums wouldn't miss this kind of chance (two townies fighting each other), since there are nobody who tried to slip in, then it means one of us isn't town, or something fishy is going on.

Last game by Kevin is also a role madness, but there is a Vanilla Townie that has a hidden ability and a Neapolitan that can be used to detect Vanillas Kevin, as we all know, an experienced GM, even thinks that it is probable that there is at least one vanilla is present, and more so considering TW uses the same roles template as the last game. TW even included the sample role PM of a Vanilla townie in the OP. The fact is that we don't know anything and any proof of scumminess in Rhizo is purely from his behaviour, suggesting anything otherwise is forcing your biased opinion. Want to revise your opinion? I already did since yesterday If we want a certain kill then we should wait until cop got all the scums, unfortunately that is improbable. The only thing we can do is make a case and let the town judges And the lack of motivations to lynch you only suggests that you're scum and your scum friends are hesitating whether to save you or distance themselves, well except FB

This is my accusation that you ignored yesterday You're scummier now, since your reason for voting Rhizo doesn't make any sense How could a VT explain himself that he is a VT convincingly? The others make a point that Rhizo is behaving suspiciously, but you instead are voting him without any justifiable reason Therefore you're just trying to misdirect the town's direction On another note, so you're suggesting Canik is a townie? Can I have a more elaborate analysis on your thoughts on Canik?

Selfish toxic play style? I mean he's been suspiciously inactive lately and isn't adding much to the conversation but that is a tactic that people use, both as town and as scum, when they are trying to avoid drawing attention. If you want to see selfish toxic play style I'll go dig up one of my old games where I tilted out on a new player who refused to listen to logic. Unless he has a powerful role that needs a low profile, it's a play style that hurts the town. All he has been doing is dismissing everyone's idea without commenting further or sharing his thoughts. If he is town, scum can use him as a scapegoat easily. On Rhizo's debacle: Fake claiming as a role cop is a huge risk, so I tend to trust Manda's claim. It is a bad claim though since it doesn't provide concrete evidence and just add more distractions to town. And I disagree with AbT on this one, I hope he isn't scum who is doing this on purpose as his argument this time isn't as sharp as before. Canik is suspicious and now is the right time to find out his alignment so we can sniff out his partners. IF Canik is town then the most suspicious ones next are Imran, AbT, and me. IF Canik is scum then it is Finster and CoD. Rhizo? If we lynch him and he turned out town, Imran is the most suspicious one. If he is scum then Canik is next. I see no reason why we should lynch him over Canik. Another reason is that he is Vanilla, I'd rather kill a non-vanilla scum over a vanilla scum. The final piece is that there really is no additional evidence that points Rhizo as a scum, even Imran who is pushing for Rhizo since the start is still keeping his vote on Canik. Why did you start voting for Rhizo now that we're getting the momentum to lynch Canik? This really hurts AbT's town cred and further increase CoD's scumminess I believe this is just a maneuver from scum to distract the town.