194 replies to this topic

[ccabal86]

Smells like double standards and selective freedom of speech. Satire against Muslims is freedom of speech, but against Zionists, its racism. :-)

Just to be clear, Zionism is a political ideology, not to be confused with religion, even though religion is a core element of it. I will admit that I'm not very familiar with Charlie Hebdo, but I fiercely believe in the freedom of speech (as long as it isn't used to incite violence), and believe no topic should be above scrutiny. There is humor in poor taste but the proper reaction to that is scorn, not banning and most certainly not murder.

"Chrstianity had Hitler" // Garbage. Hitler was ruthlessly anti-clerical and concidered christianity a jew's work, aimed at destroying "German spirit". He looked forward to eradicate Christianity, alebit after the war. Goebbels was running wide-scale smear campaigns at the clergy as soon as before the war.

To give further support to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler#Mysticism_and_symbolism

A better analogy would be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

I must make a side remark though. In the Inquisition we have works like this:

Can you imagine what would happen if someone made a video like that on ISIS? Or a "Life of Brian" type film on Muhammad?

[Lanyaie]

 

 

 

Reporters always suck at identifying weapons. I also face palmed when I read "Kalashnikov Sub machine guns." Whatever the hell that is. (AK-74U is a Carbine).

Indeed the Aks-74u is a carbine. However, it inadvertently tends to be labelled as a submachine gun. Same thing with the Car-15/Colt Commando, which is a rifle but everyone thinks its a submachine gun.

 

 

Its funny to see the racists, xenophobes and zionists jump out of the woodwork. Where was your outrage when Israel systematically destroyed a whole city full of civilians and children a few months ago?

From what I understand, the IDF and Israeli intelligence services did their best to warn Palestinians prior to being attacked. Calling cell phones or texting warnings, sending messages to home owners or aparement building residents giving them enough time to vacate. If anything, what happened last year was probably the kindest war Israel has ever fought since they put such a huge effort into trying to protect civilians. Which also led to reduced effectiveness of strikes since Hamas was now tipped off to where and what sites were going to get bombed. Rather difficult to conduct military operations when your oppenent intentionally hides amongst civilians.

 

Successful counter insurgency is incredibly hard to achieve. Recent history only has a small handful of counter insurgency operations that achieved their goals.

 

 

Over 2000 civilians killed including 513 children.  If you call that a kind war, you need to re-examine your values.

 

The reasoning behind me saying 'kind' is because the effort that went into warning civivlians prior to strikes. Its not the IDF's fault if they warn innocents prior to an attack happening the next day, and Hamas keeps the civilians inside the known targeted buildings.

 

Yes you can argue the civilian death number was higher than the average Israeli/Palestinian war, but Isreal seemed to go out of its way attempting to minimize civilian deaths.

 

I am also not interested in making this personal so I'm letting that comment about my values slide.

 

 

 

To be fair, if you get sent a message saying "we're going to bomb your house, your school and possibly more things you care about" I wouldn't call that kind. 
Kind is when you help them by not doing that kind of stuff.

[Lysistrata]

On topic, I do question the wisdom of publishing things that make people want to kill you when defending yourself is prohibited by law.

[Shahenshah]

Smells like double standards and selective freedom of speech. Satire against Muslims is freedom of speech, but against Zionists, its racism. :-)

Just to be clear, Zionism is a political ideology, not to be confused with religion, even though religion is a core element of it. I will admit that I'm not very familiar with Charlie Hebdo, but I fiercely believe in the freedom of speech (as long as it isn't used to incite violence), and believe no topic should be above scrutiny. There is humor in poor taste but the proper reaction to that is scorn, not banning and most certainly not murder.

"Chrstianity had Hitler" // Garbage. Hitler was ruthlessly anti-clerical and concidered christianity a jew's work, aimed at destroying "German spirit". He looked forward to eradicate Christianity, alebit after the war. Goebbels was running wide-scale smear campaigns at the clergy as soon as before the war.

To give further support to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler#Mysticism_and_symbolismA better analogy would be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

Yes, I do not mean to confuse zionism with Judaism, that would border anti semitism. Not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. I politically oppose the parts of zionist ideology seeking expansion and sustainence via illegal settlements, occupation and apartheid practices and would do so until there is a viable, secure, democratic and completely independent state of Palestine with full control over its side of the borders of land, air and sea and with a just solution for the refugees, living peacefully along with state of Israel. I do not oppose the parts where Jews have a right for a homeland, tho I oppose the means where others are paying enormous price in life, property and dignity for this project.

Edited by Shahenshah, 08 January 2015 - 08:24 PM.

[Fox Fire]

Its funny to see the racists, xenophobes and zionists jump out of the woodwork. Where was your outrage when Israel systematically destroyed a whole city full of civilians and children a few months ago?

Now THAT was a massacre.

 

 

 

 

 

What exactly made them xenophobic and racist? As far as I'm aware, they made plenty of fun of french politicians and celebrities.

 

Once again, I fully agree with Salman Rushdie:

 

 

Religion, a medieval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms. This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today.

I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity.

‘Respect for religion’ has become a code phrase meaning ‘fear of religion’. Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect.

 

 

Nope. Respect is respect and fear is fear. Can't really mix the 2 of them.....

 

I like satire myself but there is a line between fun and causing hurt to someone not just physical but mental and emotional too......that if I'm not wrong is the legal definition of hurt.

 

The thing is guys that all our hands are smeared in blood. No one can label anyone a genocidal maniac...... Judaism has Israeli ultra-nationalists, Christianity Hitler and Islam has ISIS/AQ/TT. 

 

"Chrstianity had Hitler" // Garbage. Hitler was ruthlessly anti-clerical and concidered christianity a jew's work, aimed at destroying "German spirit". He looked forward to eradicate Christianity, alebit after the war. Goebbels was running wide-scale smear campaigns at the clergy as soon as before the war.

 

I think Hitler was pretty indecisive in regards to religion.

 

 

Okay I have returned. I had to get away from this for a while and got some shut eye. Hi Foxy, I'll try to respond to that whole understanding Islam thing. I understand Islam more than most American middle-aged men that grew up in Christian schools and flipped Agnostic before I was in my twenties. My family was never big on church, weddings and funerals was about it. We did have a great time on Christmas and Easter, but we didn't lead our lives for Christ.

 

I kind of take life as it comes and my priority is to do what I want with the time I've got. I see life like a TV series. Everyone gets to live out an episode, but no one gets to see the whole series. I hate when that happens, but it is what it is.

 

When 9/11 happened I did not run to my computer and fill my brain full of understanding of Islam. I have no desire to understand islam, nor am I required to have an understanding of Islam to know enough about why it happened. I have no problem with religion. I have every problem with terrorism. It's awful that so many people have to die in order to stop it, but if they won't stop it on their own, we will have to stop them the other way. My opinion is, let's get it over with. They can do their worst, and we will do ours. People who kill people because they breathe air should die quick, and pity anyone that stands near them, because we will not.

 

As far as Israel goes. I can't imagine why they want to stay there. I would offer them Vermont... they can have the whole useless state. But if they don't want to leave we have to protect them, because we told them we would. They have every right to protect themselves any way they see fit, and we need to give them everything they need to do it. Leave them alone, and just think of them as Americans over there. If not, well don't complain about the casualty imbalance. We tend to kick ass when we have to.

I don't see any reason why we should defend Israel. It's like a ball and chain. Or like putting a racist skinhead in a cage with 20 black guys. Pretty obvious whats gonna happen there. I actually said the same thing about offering them a US state.

As for terrorism, I'm still in favor in letting them sort out their own shit. I mean, I can't think of any point in history where foreign intervention in the middle east solved anything.

[Shahenshah]

Its funny to see the racists, xenophobes and zionists jump out of the woodwork. Where was your outrage when Israel systematically destroyed a whole city full of civilians and children a few months ago?

Now THAT was a massacre.
 
 

 

 

 
What exactly made them xenophobic and racist? As far as I'm aware, they made plenty of fun of french politicians and celebrities.
 
Once again, I fully agree with Salman Rushdie:
 
 

Religion, a medieval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms. This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today.
I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity.
‘Respect for religion’ has become a code phrase meaning ‘fear of religion’. Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect.

 

 
Nope. Respect is respect and fear is fear. Can't really mix the 2 of them.....
 
I like satire myself but there is a line between fun and causing hurt to someone not just physical but mental and emotional too......that if I'm not wrong is the legal definition of hurt.
 
The thing is guys that all our hands are smeared in blood. No one can label anyone a genocidal maniac...... Judaism has Israeli ultra-nationalists, Christianity Hitler and Islam has ISIS/AQ/TT. 
 

"Chrstianity had Hitler" // Garbage. Hitler was ruthlessly anti-clerical and concidered christianity a jew's work, aimed at destroying "German spirit". He looked forward to eradicate Christianity, alebit after the war. Goebbels was running wide-scale smear campaigns at the clergy as soon as before the war.
 

I think Hitler was pretty indecisive in regards to religion.
 
 

Okay I have returned. I had to get away from this for a while and got some shut eye. Hi Foxy, I'll try to respond to that whole understanding Islam thing. I understand Islam more than most American middle-aged men that grew up in Christian schools and flipped Agnostic before I was in my twenties. My family was never big on church, weddings and funerals was about it. We did have a great time on Christmas and Easter, but we didn't lead our lives for Christ.
 
I kind of take life as it comes and my priority is to do what I want with the time I've got. I see life like a TV series. Everyone gets to live out an episode, but no one gets to see the whole series. I hate when that happens, but it is what it is.
 
When 9/11 happened I did not run to my computer and fill my brain full of understanding of Islam. I have no desire to understand islam, nor am I required to have an understanding of Islam to know enough about why it happened. I have no problem with religion. I have every problem with terrorism. It's awful that so many people have to die in order to stop it, but if they won't stop it on their own, we will have to stop them the other way. My opinion is, let's get it over with. They can do their worst, and we will do ours. People who kill people because they breathe air should die quick, and pity anyone that stands near them, because we will not.
 
As far as Israel goes. I can't imagine why they want to stay there. I would offer them Vermont... they can have the whole useless state. But if they don't want to leave we have to protect them, because we told them we would. They have every right to protect themselves any way they see fit, and we need to give them everything they need to do it. Leave them alone, and just think of them as Americans over there. If not, well don't complain about the casualty imbalance. We tend to kick ass when we have to.

I don't see any reason why we should defend Israel. It's like a ball and chain. Or like putting a racist skinhead in a cage with 20 black guys. Pretty obvious whats gonna happen there. I actually said the same thing about offering them a US state.
As for terrorism, I'm still in favor in letting them sort out their own shit. I mean, I can't think of any point in history where foreign intervention in the middle east solved anything.

IMO one good thing out of those interventions was Kingdom of Heaven, pretty cool movie. Brave heart still the best war movie.

[Shahenshah]

On topic, I do question the wisdom of publishing things that make people want to kill you when defending yourself is prohibited by law.

This is a jab at Samus for the whole gun debate.

[Lanyaie]

Something about today I can't help but share it here:

I currently reside in The Netherlands(from US), and I've been living here for a while now.

So today I went to The Hague to visit someone and as I returned to my home I decided to go buy myself some food. As I enter the snack bar I am surrounded by people who I assume were (teenage) Moroccans(including the employee). I order some food and wait. While I wait these guys are having a heated discussion about the events in France -  which I try to simply ignore.

The things I heard were extremely disgusting, I was actually surprised that these guys were openly speaking about it while I was present. It's almost like they didn't care at all.

 

As time passed the discussion became worse, it went from "It's his own fault for mocking the prophet" to praising the guys that committed that terror act.  When I saw the employee getting involved I was actually hoping to hear someone speak some sense.

To my surprise the thing this man says is beyond stupid:

"As muslims we're supposed to stand up for our religion - when someone insults our prophet  they insult us. we cannot let them do that. What happened in Paris was an example of what happens when someone stands against alah. It wont be soon until it happens to Geert Wilders."

 

While I did not remember exactly what was said, the last part I did remember and those were literally his words.

Needless to say, they didn't receive my money.  I really wish I would have said something but at the time I was too surprised to even think of something. This is the first time I've heard something like that with my own ears.

 

This experience still doesn't change my perspective of Muslims - there's good ones out there but the bad ones are getting out of control.

And with bad ones I do not only mean the terrorists, I also mean those that stay silent and share the same opinion. It's only a matter of time before they turn their words into deeds.

[Shahenshah]

I hope you reported this. They can go back to their country. The actors get caught, die trying or seldomly and infortunately succeed, but are locked up and shot nonetheless. The apologists and symoathisers are the real leeches and danger. They form the direct and indirect support structure. They need to be weeded out, thrown in jails or kicked out. If you can't respect the values and laws of your host country, you don't deserve to be there, period.

Edited by Shahenshah, 08 January 2015 - 08:44 PM.

[Lanyaie]

On topic, I do question the wisdom of publishing things that make people want to kill you when defending yourself is prohibited by law.

And that's another reason why guns in the US are vital, especially when you consider that the US is more of a target than any country.  Anyone that receives death threats on a regular note would have been able to at least defend themselves adequately. As we've seen gun restricting laws don't prevent those wanting to kill you from obtaining them. 

Donald Trump said something similar yesterday, quite a bit of people got offended. Then again, he didn't really do it at the appropriate time and didn't word it correctly.

[Lysistrata]

Foxy is on fire up there... I so much agree with you. We have to defend Israel because we gave our word. It would be awesome if they started begging us to help them get out of there, after all, it's just sand. It would be great to just be able to sit back for a decade and be there to help clean up the mess when it's over, but we have to get the whole world on board with that idea. Shah has once again impressed me with his movie likes... Braveheart is my favorite of all time

[onbekende]

any mystical figure with "out of this world" powers that needs to be defended by little humans is not worth the effort >_>

[Khandov]

any mystical figure with "out of this world" powers that needs to be defended by little humans is not worth the effort >_>

Who said it needs?

[onbekende]

 

any mystical figure with "out of this world" powers that needs to be defended by little humans is not worth the effort >_>

Who said it needs?

 

people who do stuff "in the name off X" usally.

[Khandov]

 

I don't see any reason why we should defend Israel. It's like a ball and chain. Or like putting a racist skinhead in a cage with 20 black guys. Pretty obvious whats gonna happen there. I actually said the same thing about offering them a US state.

As for terrorism, I'm still in favor in letting them sort out their own shit. I mean, I can't think of any point in history where foreign intervention in the middle east solved anything.

 

Obama has thrown more bombs and administered more tons of "democracy" in that place than Bush could ever throw. Ridiculous foreign policy out there did not helped either; we can congratulate Obama for arming up the movements of Arab Spring, that now roam Sryia and Iraq, yelling "Allah akbar". If they should pull back, they still need to do it smart and gradually. All those terror bands are quite capable of destroying, but since they run on hate, they can not build well, so I doubt the ISIS will ever be annoying to the West as a state. Still, it is perfectly capable of murdering every Chistian or Muslim that "does it wrong", that they see. Unless we want a humanitarian disaster/genocide, the pullback would have to be slow and gradual. And yes, the US should not get in the Middle-east in the first place.

[Khandov]

 

people who do stuff "in the name off X" usally.

 

Really? I do alot of stuff in the name of God, but letting anyone who insults him eat lead, is not one of them. An almighty being will not be lesser due to insults.

[onbekende]

 

 

people who do stuff "in the name off X" usally.

 

Really? I do alot of stuff in the name of God, but letting anyone who insults him eat lead, is not one of them. An almighty being will not be lesser due to insults.

 

if only the few fools that don't see it that way would follow that, the world would be nicer.

[Lysistrata]

 

On topic, I do question the wisdom of publishing things that make people want to kill you when defending yourself is prohibited by law.

This is a jab at Master Samus for the whole gun debate.

 

Fair enough observation, but Samus knows very well I would be there to help when the UK is under threat.

I'm a huge fan of my English cousins.

[Niels]

Something about today I can't help but share it here:
 

To my surprise the thing this man says is beyond stupid:

"As muslims we're supposed to stand up for our religion - when someone insults our prophet  they insult us. we cannot let them do that. What happened in Paris was an example of what happens when someone stands against alah. It wont be soon until it happens to Geert Wilders."

 

 

Under normal circumstances, one should never fall into the thinking of "individual action, collective guilt."  That is, we don't blame all white people for the crimes of the KKK, or all Christians for those who assassinate abortion providers, etc.  Ideally, the same principle should apply to Muslims and Islamic terrorists, though in broad terms it has not been over the past decade+ (i.e. comments such as "Muslims fall into two groups, those that hate me, and those that want to kill me").

It is however hard to avoid thinking in terms of collective guilt, when there appears to be unusually high levels of support of violent/terrorist activities in Muslim communities (e.g. support for suicide bombings among various Muslim populations: http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/pg-2014-07-01-islamic-extremism-10/).  This isn't sufficient to justify prejudice against Muslims in general, but it has worrying implications for Muslim societies (e.g. the success of ISIS at recruiting Muslims presumably interested in defending Islam by violent means if necessary to kill other Muslims) as well as prospects for general peace.

[Tripl3 Thr3at]

 

Philosophy is my single biggest passion in life... Of anything you've said, that one really irks me....
I could debate you under the water about religion in general. If you ever want a private debate about philosophy, I'm always game.

 

@Robert, don't worry, Fox Fire really doesn't know. He/She is just talking out the side of their neck -- an easy thing for most folks to do when they have no basis for their argument.

 

 

 

 

I have come to the conclusion that you are a true defender of Islam if
you keep condemning the Bible, Christianity and every other religion
other than Islam. You are beginning to sound like the Prophet Muhammad
himself.

LOL! Yeah. Ignore my condemnations of Islam.
I really hate how people like you accuse me of being anti-semetic or a terrorist lover just because I point out their hypocrisy.
Listen, IDGAF what religion anyone is. I'm a Taoist. I find all Abrahamic religion to be disturbing in their historical texts. That doesn't mean I find the followers of these religions to be disturbing. My family is Christian. I make a valid attempt to understand all ideals and beliefs. Everything from most adored, to the most hated, like IS or Nazism. I have a respect for people in general and I reject the idea that anyone anywhere at any time is completely good, or completely evil.
The vast majority of muslims I've met or spoken to denounce groups like Islamic State and radical war mongering beliefs. And when I do run into those few who want to rant about how their religion will take over the world, I'll definitely call them out on it. Same way I'll call out any stupid argument, like the one you're making now.

 

 
Wait a minute... at what point did I say that Christianity or any other religion for that nature will take over the world? All I said was that I would prefer to worship Christianity as opposed to Islam, and you chimed in thinking I was making generalizations demonizing Islam as a whole. YOU were the one making generalizations saying that Christianity and Judaism are bloody and ridiculous. Not once did I make a statement like that.
 
Maybe you just need to take a valium to ensure your sobriety and reduce your blasphemy.
 
3T

 

But you've truly gone out of your way to demonize Islam and defend Christianity. Both religions are bullshit to me, but the reason I'm defending Islam right now, is because I'm sick of people demonizing a billion and a half people and then turning around to glorify their own, identical religious ideals. I bet you don't even know that Asia has 3x amount of Muslims the middle east has. You really think that 1.6 billion people are all inherently evil?
If so, what makes your religion so much better? Don't even say the lack of killing, because that's not even remotely close to being a fact.
 

 

 

As have others "gone out of their way" to convey their honest views about the religion. Fox Fire, I don't know about you, but I live in a country that expresses free speech. This would include me talking about some religions, my view on them and how it has been connected to the mass killings of modern times. You kept bringing up the Old Testament (B.C.), and I, We are talking about today.  It is no different from you demonizing Christianity and Judaism.

 

Sorry, but this is not time to insult my intelligence on understanding where Muslims geographically migrate. They are in every part of the world including Asia, in case you did not know. Why do you think the Uighurs in China continue to have problems with Beijing? Do you want to blame China for its stance and policies against the Uighur people [because they are Muslim]? This 1.6 Billion figure you keep coughing up, but you can't explain why in just about every area of the world, people of all creeds and colors have some type of issue with Muslims.  It's not my rules, it's society. All you are doing is ranting about why society treats these people like this. I don't have an answer, but I know what I do and do not like, and I am not fond of people like yourself who have a problem that I have a problem of a certain religion.

 

Again, you place words in my mouth saying that I believe Christianity is better. Find a post that says that [you can't]. But I can find many posts of you ridiculing other religions that are not your own. If anything, I would call you evil.

 

3T