192 replies to this topic

[Lysistrata]

I don't remember this happening during the elections, but some talking head were saying that during Nobama's campaigns, he essentially did the same thing. Got a vision of his opponent to stick in the media and peoples heads before they even really had a chance to start fighting back. Basically, the talking heads were saying that Hilary was taking a page out of his playbook for this.

We are in the realm of the surreal. We have really never had an election between two people that have 100% name recognition and more people hate them than like them. When it comes down to it, people hate Donald Trump because he's crass. People hate Hillary Clinton because she's a criminal. Crass can be forgiven, and you can only beat on the dead horse for so long. People will get bored with the personal attacks on Trump... I believe they are already. Nothing has hurt him the entire primary season. It's all out there already, and anything they drag up is just more of the same.

 

There were 16 Republicans, and each one tried their hand at taking on Trump... they all lost. Hillary is too easy.

[hilowe]

Just saw this item about Trump and the Fast and Furious program:

http://www.ammoland.com/2016/05/ammoland-exclusive-trump-promised-terry-brother-answers-fast-furious/?utm_source=Ammoland+Subscribers&utm_campaign=e674cce689-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6f6fac3eaa-e674cce689-20943521#axzz4937dWfsl

For those that don't read the article, it's got a pretty hard pro-Trump slant to it, but essentially, Trump has promised to get answers to the brother of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry about the Fast and Furious program.

For those that don't know, the Fast and Furious was a program where gun dealers were essentially told by the ATF to sell guns to straw buyers, and then the ATF was going to track those guns across the border into Mexico. Program was very hush hush, until Brian Terry was killed and it was discovered that the gun used to kill him was a gun in the Fast and Furious program. Since the program came to light, there's been a lot of stalling and obstruction from the ATF all the way up to the White House about who knew what and when. If I remember correctly, only low level agents of the ATF were ever disciplined for this.

[Lysistrata]

Most people will believe Fast and Furious is just a series of action films... but if you were paying attention to what was going on early in the Obama administration, Fast and Furious was the first evidence of a corrupt administration actively taking part in criminal activity to undermine the United States Constitution. There is absolutely no good reason to allow thousands of guns to be sold from gun dealers in the US, to Mexican drug cartels.

 

The "belief" is that the plan of Eric Holder and Barack Obama to defeat the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms, was for guns manufactured and sold in the USA to be used by cartels in mass murder inside of Mexico. The Mexican Government would lose their minds and demand action. The reliable media would do their part, public outcry, and soon a Constitutional amendment would be put forth, to repeal the 2nd Amendment.

 

One thing went horribly wrong... a Border Patrol Agent named Brian Terry was killed by one of those guns inside the USA. The investigation began, and the more that was found, the more road blocks began to interfere with the investigation. When Congress got involved, subpoenaed the documents, and demanded Eric Holder appear to testify... Barack Obama invoked Executive Privilege on the documentation and Eric Holder's testimony.

 

So we have had a President, and a US Attorney General, willfully collaborate in criminal activity, supply weapons to mass murderers, accomplice to the murder of a Federal Agent, and covered the whole thing up. I believe our next Attorney General Chris Christie will have a full plate of things to do when he takes the job.

[hilowe]

Most people will believe Fast and Furious is just a series of action films... but if you were paying attention to what was going on early in the Obama administration, Fast and Furious was the first evidence of a corrupt administration actively taking part in criminal activity to undermine the United States Constitution. There is absolutely no good reason to allow thousands of guns to be sold from gun dealers in the US, to Mexican drug cartels.
 
The "belief" is that the plan of Eric Holder and Barack Obama to defeat the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms, was for guns manufactured and sold in the USA to be used by cartels in mass murder inside of Mexico. The Mexican Government would lose their minds and demand action. The reliable media would do their part, public outcry, and soon a Constitutional amendment would be put forth, to repeal the 2nd Amendment.
 
One thing went horribly wrong... a Border Patrol Agent named Brian Terry was killed by one of those guns inside the USA. The investigation began, and the more that was found, the more road blocks began to interfere with the investigation. When Congress got involved, subpoenaed the documents, and demanded Eric Holder appear to testify... Barack Obama invoked Executive Privilege on the documentation and Eric Holder's testimony.
 
So we have had a President, and a US Attorney General, willfully collaborate in criminal activity, supply weapons to mass murderers, accomplice to the murder of a Federal Agent, and covered the whole thing up. I believe our next Attorney General Chris Christie will have a full plate of things to do when he takes the job.

Won't say I disagree with you at all, Lys.

Was going to give some basic info, and let people that didn't know about it do their own research and come to their own conclusions.

[onbekende]

Not speaking about the actual facts, but just leaving this here, the ATF program in which the F&F is part (or rather the escalation) of started in 2006.

 

The whole thing was idiotic but sadly no effective strategy has been employed yet to curb Mexican drug cartels .

[Lysistrata]

Not speaking about the actual facts, but just leaving this here, the ATF program in which the F&F is part (or rather the escalation) of started in 2006.

 

The whole thing was idiotic but sadly no effective strategy has been employed yet to curb Mexican drug cartels .

Project Gunrunner and Fast and Furious were two separate operations, under different administrations. The objective of Gunrunner was to apprehend those responsible for smuggling guns out of the US. No guns ever made it out of the country.

 

Fast and Furious was obviously created for a different purpose, and attempts to confuse the public by trying to combine them into a single operation is modus operandi of the criminal Democrats... there will be a reckoning.

[hilowe]

Not speaking about the actual facts, but just leaving this here, the ATF program in which the F&F is part (or rather the escalation) of started in 2006.
 
The whole thing was idiotic but sadly no effective strategy has been employed yet to curb Mexican drug cartels .

Project Gunrunner and Fast and Furious were two separate operations, under different administrations. The objective of Gunrunner was to apprehend those responsible for smuggling guns out of the US. No guns ever made it out of the country.
 
Fast and Furious was obviously created for a different purpose, and attempts to confuse the public by trying to combine them into a single operation is modus operandi of the criminal Democrats... there will be a reckoning.

If I remember correctly, the other program that was closely related to Fast and Furious was called something like Operation Wide Receiver.

God, I'm going to have to go look at Wikipedia now....

Edit: Looking at Wikipedia (which I trust about as far as I can throw it, especially for something like this), the umbrella this all worked under was Project Gunrunner. Two different operations were worked under that, one called Operation Wide Receiver, the other Operation Fast and Furious.

Wide receiver was supposed to have coordination between US and Mexican authorities, to the point that Mike Detty (gun dealer that was working with ATF) was told "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border". Coordination didn't happen, and only 64 of the 474 guns were actually recovered. I remember listening to a podcast that this guy was on, he's got some intense stories about shit happening while he was doing this. He's also written a book. This was supposed to be 2006-2008.

Then we've got Fast and Furious (which is what highlighted this BS), from 2009-2011. Reading Wikipedia brought these two gems up, "Under the previous Operation Wide Receiver, there had been a formal ATF contract with the cooperating gun dealer and efforts were made to involve the ATF Mexico City Office (MCO) and Mexican law enforcement. Under Operation Fast and Furious, at Newell's insistence the cooperating gun dealers did not have contracts with ATF, and MCO and Mexican police were left in the dark."

"Their standard Project Gunrunner training was to follow the straw purchasers to the hand-off to the cartel buyers, then arrest both parties and seize the guns. But according to Dodson, they watched guns being bought illegally and stashed on a daily basis, while their supervisors, including David Voth and Hope MacAllister, prevented the agents from intervening."

I just looked it up, Dodson wrote a book after this all became public.

Stopping there, taking Wikipedia at face value (dangerous, I know) looks like one failed due to agency incompetence, and the other failed, but I couldn't even begin to describe it. Ego?

Edited by hilowe, 19 May 2016 - 09:59 PM.

[Lysistrata]

I don't trust a word that came from Eric Holder, or anything from this administration. Too much withholding evidence, vanishing emails, stonewalling, dragging out investigations, taking the 5th, and flat out lies. After they stood in front of 4 coffins from Benghazi and disrespected their sacrifice by bald faced lying to their families, and all of us, blaming a low level film maker, when they didn't lift a finger to help them... I was done. I have never seen more scandal within any administration than I have seen under Obama. With the media playing cover, and the American people with their faces stuck to iPhones, feeding them whatever they want them to see like cattle at a feeding trough, they get away with it. There will be an honest man in charge of our Justice Department someday... I hope very soon.

[onbekende]

If only the same level of scrutiny (or should we call it paranoia if you wanna make it an "evil conspiracy") could be found when question why Iraq war #2 started...

 

What I see from this all, which is indeed mostly wikipedia related, is some folks putting numbers before people, putting results before means, putting ego before reason. And an obvious attempt to not get a shitstorm going which will affect other branches and people who might have little to nothing to do with it just so it could become political. And while I don't mind the occational "the top brass hs to go because this lowly peanut did a boo-boo", I find them mostly motivated by feelings instead of facts.

[hilowe]

If only the same level of scrutiny (or should we call it paranoia if you wanna make it an "evil conspiracy") could be found when question why Iraq war #2 started...

This could be said of many things. At the time, though, I know I wasn't nearly as distrustful of the federal government as I am now. I kind of took it on faith that if they said they had intelligence that indicated something, then it was likely true, or at least close enough to true.

Now, anything I hear someone from the federal government propose, I try to look at what this will give whomever is proposing it. Even if I think it sounds like a good idea, and is something that should be done.

The second president Bush started me down this path, but Obama has sent me miles down it.

What I see from this all, which is indeed mostly wikipedia related, is some folks putting numbers before people, putting results before means, putting ego before reason. And an obvious attempt to not get a shitstorm going which will affect other branches and people who might have little to nothing to do with it just so it could become political. And while I don't mind the occational "the top brass hs to go because this lowly peanut did a boo-boo", I find them mostly motivated by feelings instead of facts.

It's not just that. A program like this, by my understanding, should have had a lot of higher level oversight. Especially with the laws that were being heavily bent and outright broken. So, the question really is, who knew what and when. There has been so much obstruction (as pointed out by Lys), it sure looks and smells like a cover up.

I'm just tired of the double standards that SEEM to have been applied. If I were to break some of these laws, my kids would be out of college before I got out of prison. These guys, Congress is trying to investigate to see if laws were really broken, and Congress is being stopped.

My other problem is, I think it should be the FBI investigating, not Congress, without pressure or impediment from the White House. Congress keeps forgetting what their real job is (hint, it's not investigations, or bitching about steroid use in baseball like they did 10 years ago).

[onbekende]

Perhaps a better split between the 3 great "independant" powers of a government is needed?

 

That said, "politics" are still politics, nobody wants to unnecesary harm their predecessor/opponent if they know that could boomerang into their own face. This isn't exclusively to politicians.

[Lysistrata]

Hillary's in trouble... anyone surprised?

 

The State Department has released their audit... 78 pages long, and it's not good for her. She violated State Department policies according to the Federal Records Act. Hillary, Cheryl Mills, Jake Sullivan, and Huma Abedin did not cooperate with the review. This will not go well for her with the FBI investigation, and the timing is in line with the scenario I laid out many months ago... that they will bring Hillary down before she clinches the nomination, and after Bernie Sanders cannot clinch it. They want Joe Biden and Elizabeth Warren... they just might get it.

 

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/05/hillary-clinton-email-inspector-general-report-223553

[onbekende]

excellent, now actually get a move on it or are you fellows taking lessons from the belgian justice department?

[Lysistrata]

excellent, now actually get a move on it or are you fellows taking lessons from the belgian justice department?

It's the Obama Administration's State Department and Justice Department... we are all very used to them never doing anything to hurt their own... frankly, I'm a bit shocked to see this come out at all, so now I'm believing the Obama's hate the Clinton's even more than I knew they did. Maybe the State Department knows that the FBI will be doing something?... and didn't want to be seen as obstructionists? Like we already know they are? We have all been waiting a very long time.

[ccabal86]

excellent, now actually get a move on it or are you fellows taking lessons from the belgian justice department?

 

This comment did make me chuckle

[onbekende]

 

excellent, now actually get a move on it or are you fellows taking lessons from the belgian justice department?

It's the Obama Administration's State Department and Justice Department... we are all very used to them never doing anything to hurt their own... frankly, I'm a bit shocked to see this come out at all, so now I'm believing the Obama's hate the Clinton's even more than I knew they did. Maybe the State Department knows that the FBI will be doing something?... and didn't want to be seen as obstructionists? Like we already know they are? We have all been waiting a very long time.

 

So wait, they are both ready-ing this massive "sink Hillary" bazooka to go off the minute she clinches the nomination in delegate numbers AND they are backpaddling this to the next decade to keep her going strong?

 

Make up your mind will ya.

 

 

Anyway, when will "grudge" be taken of the political menu? Society wants to actually move on once...

[Lysistrata]

According to the Associated Press and Real Clear Politics... Donald Trump has clinched the Republican nomination for President. Their calculations have him at 1,238 delegates, and he is now the official nominee. Now it's on to the convention.

 

The Democrats on the other hand... have their hands full... of something... I don't know, it's not my problem.

[Elendil]

America is the most valuable thing the world has ever produced... that is fact.

 

I'm not being anti-american here (at least this morning) but I'd say that's a little much.

I'd give that prize to 5th Century BC Athens. Second prize to 15th C. AD Florence.

[Lysistrata]

I'd give that prize to 5th Century BC Athens. Second prize to 15th C. AD Florence.

Wow... did they go from horseback to the moon inside one century?... didn't think so. 

[Eva999]

I'd give that prize to 5th Century BC Athens. Second prize to 15th C. AD Florence.

Wow... did they go from horseback to the moon inside one century?... didn't think so. 

What a weird qualification for worth. You could have picked any number of world changing technologies that have come out of the US but you went with what was essentially a dick waving contest between the US and Russia.