459 replies to this topic

[Canik]

Okay, after much reading and fact-checking here is what I've found:

Me and ABT had pretty much indicated on Day 1 that we are VTs..i think someone else did too but I cant remember now...so we were not at the top the scum hit list.

This initially stood out and seemed very suspicious to me. Rhizo noticed too and called you out on it. You gave a decent explanation here - http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/?p=861038 (Post #259)

However upon fact-checking, it does not make much sense. Virtually everyone spoke from a VT point of view. Lyner included. Links below
http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/?p=856287 (Post #30)
http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/?p=856668 (Post #75)

And there may have been more I stopped at that point because it is clear that Lyner was not so ambiguous as you claim. It's clear your argument was false, dishonest, misleading. A kneejerk defensive argument you might expect from a scum. Between that and all the other points TW & Rhizo make, I am pretty convinced Imran is in fact scum with ABT/Whitehead his most likely partners. (I could see CoD instead of AbT though)

So for now, Unvote
Vote Imran

 

[SeaBeeGipson]

I apologize for the wall of text I'm about to make. I've played this entire game on my phone and finally have been able to get to a desktop and actually read over everything. Heres my thoughts on everyone.

 

Mandarijn - Town - Began the discussion to figure out a plan for the town in Post #7, made some good additions during the conversation despite an overlook (AbT as well), but not large enough to convince me hes scum.

 

The Warrior - On the Fence, leaning towards town. - First person to want to discuss plan with Mandarijn, despite random D1 posts in between the two. D1 TW gave off good town vibes, until he began to target Canik/Ferm. I felt he just jumped on the wagon there and refused to bunge, even after Canik made a fairly convincing town post in my opinion. His recent behavior is what is leading me more to the on the fence feel. In Post 274, he mentions alot of things I seen as well reading over the thread, mainly about Imran (get to that later.) but failed to mention Imran addressed some of his concerns earlier in post 257 when Rhizo brought up some of the same points.

 

Canik - Town - Ferm was one of the beginning voices for the no lynch vote, and held true to it. I don't think a scum would hold so strongly towards a no-lynch. Canik also came in and defended the accusations fairly well when he joined. (didnt write post # down. But you know the post I'm referring to.) I feel this is probably the best time to bring up Imran. 

 

Imran - Scum - In post 108, 167, and a few others, he states his issue with voting to lynch someone who hasn't made a single post, yet we should lynch lurkers. However, in post 32, you voted for WB before he even posted. D1 is filled with joke votes, but your response seemed to come off a serious vote for him. As if trying to start a wagon early on, or more likely, space yourself from another scum.  It seems odd you two would vote for each other, post to a OMGUS post, and back off once it was stated it was a "joke". 

 

In post 39, where my issues from reading over D1 really begin, you state Ferm's post are scummy with no real evidence. Nothing developed at this point, but in post 113, you try to start a wagon again. You mention Ferm/Canik being on the fence for stating AbT had some scummy actions, but overall behaves like a townie. Is that not what a majority of people do? Focus on the scummy acts, but pay attention to the overall behavior to avoid a mislynch. However, post 113 seemed to create  a lynch wagon for Canik/Ferm. I wouldn't have had much of  an issue with that except you didnt even vote for Ferm/Canik until the wagon was started in 123 and once people started paying attention to other potential scum, you seemed to have sole focus on Canik/Ferm and tried to resurrect the wagon in  128 and bring attention away from Robert. You stated Canik made a really townie post when he joined, but refused to remove your vote. When did you remove it? Just before the deadline. My guesses are 1) you hoped you could convince someone on the Robert wagon to switch to Canik's while clearing your name by saying he felt like a townie or 2) you didn't want someone looking back in the event Canik was lynched and appeared townie to see you trying to create a wagon.

 

In post 241, you mentioned that Lyner was curious of Tw and Rhizo, but never mentioned Lyner and AbT's constant back and forth. You seemed to be jumping on the new wagon of trying to get TW lynched. In that same post, you mention I came off as scummy but list zero examples. Zero. A statement you've made several times, in my opinion, to test the waters with a potential wagon. 

 

In 244, you mentioned how you were coming off as a VT. Isn't everyone going to? I mean you arent going to come out and say you are a scum. The comment just seemed dead weight to me, but it doesn't really indicate any sort of scum behavior.

 

In 257, you dispute a lot of claims Rhizo made (some familiar to what I mentioned above) and some did give me a slight townie feel from you, however I can't tell if the post is you trying to convince everyone you aren't scum by finding small work-arounds, or if it is truly your reasoning for things.

 

Post 280 really has no weight for me (like 244), but I wanted to bring out how you said RL has been hectic in earlier post and you bring out you'll response later to the accusations. You did this at the beginning of D2 and didn't seem to respond until you had a comfortable stance to jump into. I'm interested if you'll actually address TW concerns or wait until someone else does it for you, or it just rolls over. I am interested in your response.

 

Now for suspect #2, Whitebeard.

Whitebeard - Scum - His very first post is directed at Imran and begins the whole OMGUS ordeal. It felt really scummy looking back at it. I post 57, he states AbT behavior won't get him far, but no reasoning. Even a new player knows to include reasoning in most of your posts. He did vote for a no lynch, but wasn't very active in the discussion so that doesn't indicate scum or town behavior to me. Post 102 starts the weird behavior and leads us to the biggest wtf moment of this thread imo, Post 174. Either Whitebeard is a VT who doesnt care much for this game because he doesn't know how to contribute (in which case, a replacement would be nice.) or hes a scum trying to play off with random, nooby behavior. Even as a new player, Whitebeard's style doesn't fit with noob mistakes. It fits with carelessness or purposely trying to misdirect people.

 

AbT - Town - Early on, Post 70, AbT doesn't react harsh to being accused of being a scum. The way he handled it gave me a townie feel from him. He was very active for a no-lynch, which I doubt any scum would advocate for as much as AbT did. The only scum indicator I really get from him is him being so closely aligned with Imran (which I doubt scum would do, as it'd make them both easy targets) and in Post 226, he mentioned the breadcrumb argument was getting the town nowhere (a point I absolutely agree with, the whole ordeal was pointless.), but continued to participate in the breadcrumb discussion after that post. I just take it as him defending his stance.

 

CoD - Town - Despite not posting alot, the few post he have made have town written on them. He did bring up the point of not ignoring the Vig (something everyone forgot existed at that point) as it would allow the Mafia to ignore their doctor and save their points. It was an overlooked post, but major town points in my opinion as it brought up a good point. We have to keep the scum guessing on what PR our plan will use.

 

Myself - I know my role.

 

Rhizo - On the Fence, leaning scum - Rhizo did spot a flaw in Mandarijn's plan and to me, that was one of the most town-like posts in the thread so far. He voted for no lynch, and was even against the Robert lynch. However, he did try to sneak in the final vote on Canik after Canik made a relatively town post when he joined. Beyond that, he was a large part of the breadcrumb argument that engulfed a lot of D2 and left us with nothing to go on. I felt it was possibly his way of getting the town's attention off of anything relevant. Beyond that, if Rhizo and Imran are both scum and are constantly arguing with each other. Say we lynch one, and they turn up scum. The only would feel safe as he'd appear to be a townie for leading the charge and the town would ignore him, mislynch, and discover this plan too late.

 

So, in my opinion, the 3 scum are Imran, Whitebeard, and possibly Rhizo.

 

Vote Imran. 

 

If Imran is scum, Whitebeard would be the next target. However, if Imran is a townie (hopefully not a PR if he does get lynched), it might indicate either Rhizo or TW being a scum. We'd have some information to head into D3 with.

[KevinH]

Vote Count:

Imran Ehsan (4): Rhizoctonia, The Warrior, Canik, King Hitler,
The Warrior (2): Ali bin Turban, Imran Ehsan,
iSocialism (1): Whitebeard,
King Hitler (1): Rafay,
Rafay (1): Mandarijn,
Whitebeard (0):
Rhizoctonia (0):
Canik (0):
Chaplain of Death (0):
Ali bin Turban (0)
Mandarijn (0)

No lynch (0):

Not voting: iSocialism, Chaplain of Death,

 

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch or 3 at deadline.
Deadline is 13:00 EDT Sunday, June 12.

[Imran Ehsan]

oh wow..thats a quick bandwagon. How many is that 5 already? Before I even get a chance to defend myself from TW's BS accusations.

 

Well I am not gonna do that anymore. Just a waste of time and short on time anyway. Also I am a VT so this is actually good for the town. Much better than lynching one of the inactives.

 

When I get lynched, lynch in this order:

 

lynch TW tomorrow

lynch KH the next day

 

If KH turns up town, lynch Rhizo.

 

I dont believe all 3 scum or on my wagon, but I would say there are 2. Rhizo is probably the clueless townie who has no clue how to play this game scum or town. I am pretty sure TW is scum, followed by KH. The 3rd one is probably in the lurker group (iSoc, Rafay or Whitebeard).

[Ali bin Turban]

 

 

- If I were scum and Canik was town it would be stupid of me to try and lynch TW. I would join you in accusing him, or what's better I'd keep my vote on Fermion.

  - If I were scum and Canik was scum it would also be stupid of me to try and lynch TW using something my scum buddy is doing as a reason.

  - If I were scum targeting TW in general would be extremely stupid of me. There are so many other targets, that can't even fight back. For instance voting on Whitebeard along with TW. Voting on iSoc or Rafay. Why would I risk?

 

 

1.  I find the idea you were scum and he was town as unlikely in my eyes at this point.  I don't really see this scenario.  But anyway, I'm confused with this, as the first sentence seems to be talking about now, the second seems to be talking about your vote night 1 since you mention keeping your vote on Fermion.  Now if we're talking about night 1, it would make sense for you to take your vote off Fermion if you were scum in case he was lynched...as you would be part of lynching a town in this scenerio, where instead, you took it off him and voted Lyner who wasn't in danger of getting lynched, and you didn't put it on Robert who was lynched and also was town.  Now in regards to now, one could say you would go after Tw today instead of Canik...because Canik already has me pressuring him, there's no need to jump right on to Canik when you can look to try to get another active town lynch, then later go back to Canik since I atleast already had suspicion of him.

 

2.  Yes, they're both doing the same thing, if you're talking about breadcrumb.  The only difference is, you've said multiple occasions it's not due to his breadcrumb idea, so technically you aren't lynching him over the same thing Canik is doing. That, and you gave him the benefit of the doubt Day 1 and tried to make an excuse for him, and now on Day 2, you've already tried to help Canik out by still not suspecting him and saying he's at least trying to explain himself.  You have in fact done your best to keep giving Canik excuses for continuing to bring up the idea, which I could easily see as trying to help him out.  You haven't gone after Canik.

 

3.  Now see comments like this make me suspicious of you.  I know you're an intelligent person and you can answer why what you're saying doesn't make sense.  But to explain some, a very good reason would be to take out an active town over the 3 you mentioned.  Rafay/Isocialism/Whitebeard aren't a threat to you, they hardly post or do anything.  Like Mandarijn said, scum can't sit here and continue to try to pick off the inactive town and leave the active ones...that would be a bad move.  So first and foremost, it helps scum to take out the active town, so trying to take TW out makes sense.  Also, because Lyner being killed at night and him last calling out me and TW you can try to use.  In fact, it's been suggested that could be a reason for us to kill Lyner as some type of evidence to have us lynched, and tbh, I see Lyner's lynch exactly as that...trying to setup one of us.  Now I came out pretty townish come day 2 because I was adamant about not lynching an inactive that ended up town...so that leaves TW to go after, or at least the easiest of the 2.

What's there to be confused about? I've shown if I were a scum I'd do many things in the past, both D1 and D2 - I think that's pretty clear (By the way what's up with that voting at night? Have you voted anyone on N1:P?).

 

Secondly I find your suggestion odd, that

                "it would make sense for you to take your vote off Fermion if you were scum in case he was lynched...as you would be part of lynching a town in this scenerio"

and at the same time you say

               "So first and foremost, it helps scum to take out the active town, so trying to take TW out makes sense"

 

So you're implying that being on a bandwaggon among many others to vote someone that turned out town is more dangerous to the scum than putting himself in the spotlight by aggressively trying to lynch town (obviously scum wouldn't try so hard to lynch other scum) to the point of being "fixated"?

 

That really makes sense to you?

 

Thirdly, I'm not that experienced with mafia, but I'd say that lynching active town on D2 (when there's not much to work on) is quite impossible and I don't think it would happen unless that town made some very scummy moves. In my eyes risk is to high.

Also trying to lynch an active player means there will be a lot of discussion and scum don't want it, because that creates material for the town to work on (and determine who's who).

 

I always though that scums are taking out dangerous targets at night and try to encourage quick lynches (less talking = less material for the town to think about)...especially that their objective just is to have X misslynches. Just like in our game - 4 misslynches and we've lost and it does not matter if we'll be lynching active or inactive player.

 

But hey, I'm quite new to this game, you may go ahead and show me examples where we had a scum charging straight at the beginning at townies...not joining the fight but initiating it, lynching town and getting away with it.

[Chaplain of death]

Problem with your thinking ABT is that because you don't expect scum to do this, they CAN get away with it. I've played that way in the past as scum, and got away with it for a long time because "why would scum do that, it wouldn't make sense." Just saying.

I'm unsure of what to make of all this since I adamantly refuse to waste my time reading these walls of text, but seeing as Imran is lynched at deadline I see no need to cast a vote. From there we can move forward with a plan to act against one group or the other.

[Ali bin Turban]

 

There was no "short list for scum". Lyner didn't come out and say "I think X,Y, and Z are scum". He made comments throughout the day about several people. Rhizo, myself, and ABT happened to be three of them mentioned. ABT probably had the "worst" run-in with him of everyone mentioned. I'm pretty sure that Lyner saying "I'll remember your actions in future days" to ABT is a lot harsher than "TW and Rhizo feels a bit scummy right now."

There are several reasons why you could have wanted Lyner killed. If you believed him to be the cop then he would be your obvious target. It doesn't matter whether he said he suspected you or not. Killing the most powerful town power role would have been the best scum option if you thought you had him figured out. Not only is the town's only "real" information source gone but you would have managed to do it without any suspicion landing on you since you didn't have any disagreement with him. Lyner is also one experienced player that would be out of the way. It was a safe kill for you to make.

 

TW I'd like to see the logic that allowed you to conceive such conclusion that my run-in was "worst". Especially because you conveniently forgot to mention the timeline.

 

And the timeline was like that:

 

1. I vote on Lyner and proceed to talk with him

2. In the middle of discussion he says he'll keep my move in his mind.

3. We chat a little more.

4. At the end of the D1 he states you and Rhizo feel a bit scummy to him.

 

He didn't mention me at the end of the day. He mentioned you. So please, do share why do you think I was presumably bigger suspect in his eyes than you?

 

BTW in your #242 you don't think Lyners experience had anything to do. But that's just probably a little change of heart.

 

- 6) Lyner was targeted because he is an experienced player. This reason is also unlikely because other experienced players were far more active up to that point

 

 

 

Now I'm off. When I get back, I'll take look at Imran and see if I can post something about him.

[Ali bin Turban]

Problem with your thinking ABT is that because you don't expect scum to do this, they CAN get away with it. I've played that way in the past as scum, and got away with it for a long time because "why would scum do that, it wouldn't make sense." Just saying.

I'm unsure of what to make of all this since I adamantly refuse to waste my time reading these walls of text, but seeing as Imran is lynched at deadline I see no need to cast a vote. From there we can move forward with a plan to act against one group or the other.

Care to show me that? It would be a good thing to read?

 

As for the plan, whoever gets lynched, we'll get a lot of information basing on the results + hopefully Cop results on D3 (so 3-4 people will probably be revealed, depending on cops luck) That will give us a lot to think about.

[Mandarijn]

Ok, so here's another of my theories.  

 

Imran or TW are probably scum. I have no idea who. I was suspicious of Imran before with his low activity and not pushing for a good lynch (not an inactive) at the end of D1, so he may very well be scum. It's also not a normal bandwagon on him, most have explained their vote with a wall of text (only Canik not so much). If not, then it's TW (I'll have to check how he got himself into the spotlight, if it was himself, then we might be on the wrong track here). The results of the cop tomorrow might be helpful in this regard tomorrow as well.

 

To me:

Rhizo (he can't make the same mistake 3 times in a row + this time he wasn't forced in this situation I think, so he has to be town) and King Hitler (he's new, but he's actively trying to participate. So I don't see him being scum at all and playing it this good) are certain town.

Rafay is most likely scum, I've already stated earlier why I would put him above iSoc or WB (although 1 of them or maybe even both could be scum as well).

 

This also means there are already 2 townies on Imran's wagon: Rhizo and KH. So if there's a scum (or 2) on the wagon, it's TW or Canik.

 

This leaves Ali, Canik, Chaplain and then our 2 lurkers: iSoc and WB.

 

- Ali: could be scum, he kept his playing style (which he would also do if he's scum). He did bring attention to Rafay (who I think is scum) at the start of D1, which got him to talk a bit. So it could be a smart thing to do even if he was scum. But I'm gonna say that's to risky and he's likely a townie.

- Canik: could be either. He can very well be scum... (especially if TW and Imran are both town, because they were both on his wagon on D1)

- Chaplain: has been pretty quiet, he could also be either. Seeing he doesn't want to vote (because Imran will be lynched in 3 days either way), could be a scum that doesn't want to give any more information (I've seen this movie a lot before). So in that regard I'll keep my eye on you and you've just risen a couple spots on my scum list.

- iSoc and WB: could be either, leaning more towards town for iSoc and more towards scum for WB, but meh. Useless...

 

 

I'm not comfortable with lynching TW or Imran really, they will get killed soon either way if they're town because they're active. We should pressure the lurkers. If you guys are dead set on lynching Imran, fine. But can we get some pressure on the lurkers in the mean time then please? We still have 3 days...

[Rhizoctonia]

 

 

 

- If I were scum and Canik was town it would be stupid of me to try and lynch TW. I would join you in accusing him, or what's better I'd keep my vote on Fermion.

  - If I were scum and Canik was scum it would also be stupid of me to try and lynch TW using something my scum buddy is doing as a reason.

  - If I were scum targeting TW in general would be extremely stupid of me. There are so many other targets, that can't even fight back. For instance voting on Whitebeard along with TW. Voting on iSoc or Rafay. Why would I risk?

 

 

1.  I find the idea you were scum and he was town as unlikely in my eyes at this point.  I don't really see this scenario.  But anyway, I'm confused with this, as the first sentence seems to be talking about now, the second seems to be talking about your vote night 1 since you mention keeping your vote on Fermion.  Now if we're talking about night 1, it would make sense for you to take your vote off Fermion if you were scum in case he was lynched...as you would be part of lynching a town in this scenerio, where instead, you took it off him and voted Lyner who wasn't in danger of getting lynched, and you didn't put it on Robert who was lynched and also was town.  Now in regards to now, one could say you would go after Tw today instead of Canik...because Canik already has me pressuring him, there's no need to jump right on to Canik when you can look to try to get another active town lynch, then later go back to Canik since I atleast already had suspicion of him.

 

2.  Yes, they're both doing the same thing, if you're talking about breadcrumb.  The only difference is, you've said multiple occasions it's not due to his breadcrumb idea, so technically you aren't lynching him over the same thing Canik is doing. That, and you gave him the benefit of the doubt Day 1 and tried to make an excuse for him, and now on Day 2, you've already tried to help Canik out by still not suspecting him and saying he's at least trying to explain himself.  You have in fact done your best to keep giving Canik excuses for continuing to bring up the idea, which I could easily see as trying to help him out.  You haven't gone after Canik.

 

3.  Now see comments like this make me suspicious of you.  I know you're an intelligent person and you can answer why what you're saying doesn't make sense.  But to explain some, a very good reason would be to take out an active town over the 3 you mentioned.  Rafay/Isocialism/Whitebeard aren't a threat to you, they hardly post or do anything.  Like Mandarijn said, scum can't sit here and continue to try to pick off the inactive town and leave the active ones...that would be a bad move.  So first and foremost, it helps scum to take out the active town, so trying to take TW out makes sense.  Also, because Lyner being killed at night and him last calling out me and TW you can try to use.  In fact, it's been suggested that could be a reason for us to kill Lyner as some type of evidence to have us lynched, and tbh, I see Lyner's lynch exactly as that...trying to setup one of us.  Now I came out pretty townish come day 2 because I was adamant about not lynching an inactive that ended up town...so that leaves TW to go after, or at least the easiest of the 2.

What's there to be confused about? I've shown if I were a scum I'd do many things in the past, both D1 and D2 - I think that's pretty clear (By the way what's up with that voting at night? Have you voted anyone on N1:P?).

 

Secondly I find your suggestion odd, that

                "it would make sense for you to take your vote off Fermion if you were scum in case he was lynched...as you would be part of lynching a town in this scenerio"

and at the same time you say

               "So first and foremost, it helps scum to take out the active town, so trying to take TW out makes sense"

 

So you're implying that being on a bandwaggon among many others to vote someone that turned out town is more dangerous to the scum than putting himself in the spotlight by aggressively trying to lynch town (obviously scum wouldn't try so hard to lynch other scum) to the point of being "fixated"?

 

That really makes sense to you?

 

Thirdly, I'm not that experienced with mafia, but I'd say that lynching active town on D2 (when there's not much to work on) is quite impossible and I don't think it would happen unless that town made some very scummy moves. In my eyes risk is to high.

Also trying to lynch an active player means there will be a lot of discussion and scum don't want it, because that creates material for the town to work on (and determine who's who).

 

I always though that scums are taking out dangerous targets at night and try to encourage quick lynches (less talking = less material for the town to think about)...especially that their objective just is to have X misslynches. Just like in our game - 4 misslynches and we've lost and it does not matter if we'll be lynching active or inactive player.

 

But hey, I'm quite new to this game, you may go ahead and show me examples where we had a scum charging straight at the beginning at townies...not joining the fight but initiating it, lynching town and getting away with it.

 

 

 

I think we're continuing to not be on the same page on this. 

 

If I were scum and Canik was town it would be stupid of me to try and lynch TW. I would join you in accusing him, or what's better I'd keep my vote on Fermion.

 

 

Your first sentence seems to refer to Day 2 actions, as it was day 2 that you started to try to get TW lynched.  The second sentence seems to refer to Day 1, because that was the only day you voted Fermion so would be the only time you could keep your vote on him.  So I'm confused on how the first sentence and the 2nd connect.

 

Secondly I find your suggestion odd, that

                "it would make sense for you to take your vote off Fermion if you were scum in case he was lynched...as you would be part of lynching a town in this scenerio"

and at the same time you say

               "So first and foremost, it helps scum to take out the active town, so trying to take TW out makes sense"

 

So you're implying that being on a bandwaggon among many others to vote someone that turned out town is more dangerous to the scum than putting himself in the spotlight by aggressively trying to lynch town (obviously scum wouldn't try so hard to lynch other scum) to the point of being "fixated"?

 

 

Again, we're not on the same page.  I am, and still am confused by your sentence, as I don't know if we're talking about Day 1 actions or Day 2.  Again, your first sentence is in regards of day 2, because it's when you started to try to get TW lynced, your 2nd sentence is talking about keeping your vote on Day 1 on Fermion.

 

Going with the scenario of you as scum, Canik is town

 

I'm saying on Day 1, it would of been smart of you to take your vote off Canik, not jump on accusing him or keeping your vote on him like you suggest.  As scum, you would know Canik is town, so taking off your vote and not being apart of the lynch of a townie if say Canik did get lynched is the best option for you.  It keeps you out of the spotlight not being associated with it.  Look at what played out, a townie was lynched without the need for you, so as a scum you were able to successfully kill off a town and you not have to get your hands dirty.  

 

Now in regards to Day 2 - I'm saying that it could be worth scum to look to take out one of the more active town players, in this case TW.  Knocking out an active townie benefits the scum greatly, and scum picked the perfect target to lynch N1 to help try to push a lynch on either myself or TW to help your case.  And look what you keep bringing up in a lot of your posts, Lyner making a passing comment we were looking a bit scummish yet didn't even elaborate at all, as some type of evidence.  At worst, TW gets lynched and is found to be town and you say well damn I made a mistake, but he was acting all scummish as I tried to point out and Lyner seemed to believe so too and he was town.  You're a smart guy, you could probably do well to smooth over a mislynch.

 

 

Thirdly, I'm not that experienced with mafia, but I'd say that lynching active town on D2 (when there's not much to work on) is quite impossible and I don't think it would happen unless that town made some very scummy moves. In my eyes risk is to high.

Also trying to lynch an active player means there will be a lot of discussion and scum don't want it, because that creates material for the town to work on (and determine who's who).

 

Day 2 is probably the best day to look to push a lynch on an active town.  As the game progresses, people's votes and actions give off a pretty good read on people that it would make it hard to lynch an active townie later in the game if his actions up to then really were pro town.  But on day 2, there's not much to go on, no one has a good a read on people as they do later in the game, it's the best time to look to find a way to take apart what someone said and make it look scummy and look to push a lynch.  There's not a whole lot of info out there, especially coming out of N1 in this game, so if you can find a little something to accuse someone and then look to take apart their response to build on it, you have the best chance to do so.  Then if you're skilled enough, the next day try to explain yourself and so on to take some heat off you.  A mislynch this early isn't going to make people suspicious...look at the mislynch on Robert...it's been hardly talked about nor anyone involved suspected.  

 

I always though that scums are taking out dangerous targets at night and try to encourage quick lynches (less talking = less material for the town to think about)...especially that their objective just is to have X misslynches. Just like in our game - 4 misslynches and we've lost and it does not matter if we'll be lynching active or inactive player.

 

 

This makes sense and I'd agree this is a safer route for scum to go.  But if everyone has the same mindset, and only are suspicious of what a usual scum would do, then it allows scum to do it, because you already think that a scum wouldn't do that and dismiss it

[The Warrior]

oh wow..thats a quick bandwagon. How many is that 5 already? Before I even get a chance to defend myself from TW's BS accusations.

 

Well I am not gonna do that anymore. Just a waste of time and short on time anyway. Also I am a VT so this is actually good for the town. Much better than lynching one of the inactives.

 

When I get lynched, lynch in this order:

 

lynch TW tomorrow

lynch KH the next day

 

If KH turns up town, lynch Rhizo.

 

I dont believe all 3 scum or on my wagon, but I would say there are 2. Rhizo is probably the clueless townie who has no clue how to play this game scum or town. I am pretty sure TW is scum, followed by KH. The 3rd one is probably in the lurker group (iSoc, Rafay or Whitebeard).

 

Defending yourself is only a waste of time if you don't have a defense. If you have a defense I would actually love to hear it because I'd rather lynch someone who is scum rather than someone who isn't. If you get lynched and come up VT, I will be surprised, but you are correct that either way the town will have information that we need to win the game.

 

I believe that Imran is scum. However, in the case that he isn't, I guarantee you that the three scums will be in this group: Whitebeard, King Hitler, Canik, iSoc, Rafay, COD.

 

Mandarijn, Rhizo, and ABT are all confirmed townies in my opinion.

 

Just looking back really quickly I think we can probably start to narrow down the scum list even further by looking at Robert's lynch on day 1. Rafay, COD, and King Hitler were all on that wagon. I doubt that all three of them are scum but it's pretty safe to say that at least one is and possibly even a second. I'll try and go back and comb through the Robert lynch a little bit more tonight or tomorrow.

 

 

 

There was no "short list for scum". Lyner didn't come out and say "I think X,Y, and Z are scum". He made comments throughout the day about several people. Rhizo, myself, and ABT happened to be three of them mentioned. ABT probably had the "worst" run-in with him of everyone mentioned. I'm pretty sure that Lyner saying "I'll remember your actions in future days" to ABT is a lot harsher than "TW and Rhizo feels a bit scummy right now."

There are several reasons why you could have wanted Lyner killed. If you believed him to be the cop then he would be your obvious target. It doesn't matter whether he said he suspected you or not. Killing the most powerful town power role would have been the best scum option if you thought you had him figured out. Not only is the town's only "real" information source gone but you would have managed to do it without any suspicion landing on you since you didn't have any disagreement with him. Lyner is also one experienced player that would be out of the way. It was a safe kill for you to make.

 

TW I'd like to see the logic that allowed you to conceive such conclusion that my run-in was "worst". Especially because you conveniently forgot to mention the timeline.

 

And the timeline was like that:

 

1. I vote on Lyner and proceed to talk with him

2. In the middle of discussion he says he'll keep my move in his mind.

3. We chat a little more.

4. At the end of the D1 he states you and Rhizo feel a bit scummy to him.

 

He didn't mention me at the end of the day. He mentioned you. So please, do share why do you think I was presumably bigger suspect in his eyes than you?

 

I'm not really sure how Lyner saying:

 

 

TW and Rhizo feels a bit scummy right now

 

is worse than Lyner saying:

 

 

I wish you luck for my wagon, I'll keep this move of yours in mind for the next days

 

Ignore the timeline for just a second and look strictly at what Lyner said. Which phrase is more potentially damning when considering that the person who said it was killed that same night? Just because Lyner mentions Rhizo and I later in the day than his exchange with you seems irrelevant to me. If he had a reason to suspect either of us other than that we seemed a bit suspicious he would have said it instead of leaving it at that.

 

Now, even factoring in the timeline of events, unless I'm mistaken (please correct me if I am) I don't recall Lyner ever saying "I was wrong about ABT, I believe he is town" after your exchange with him. So he still had reason to suspect you as well even if he mentioned Rhizo and myself after you. Killing Lyner at night was just a convenient play for the scum to make no matter who looked more suspicious (You, Me, Rhizo, or anyone else who Lyner commented on) since it could be used against any of us.

[Rhizoctonia]

So I'm trying to give ABT the benefit of the doubt at this moment, as I have for the time being with Canik.  Up til today, I saw ABT as townie.

 

Reasons for suspcion:

 

-  Jumping out the gate to attack TW.  The only thing I see from Day 1 that TW said that looks any type of suspicious is him agreeing with breadcrumb idea.  His post about whitebeard is exactly what I was feeling, and his summary of thoughts have been done by many.  That seems where you first had suspicion, for me I don't see it

-  A lot of his reasons why he's pushing for TW can be said about a lot of people.  It's not excursively him

-  Uses Lyner's brief comment about us looking a bit scummish against TW and I.  Exactly why I thought Lyner was partially lynched for, to look to make a case he was lynched because the last 2 that started to look suspicious of was us.

-  ABT/Imran looked like a coordinated attack.  ABT set the ground work, Imran came out of left field suddenly and jumped on it quick.  Then Imran makes a comment about both him and Mandarijn indicated on Day 1 they were VT's..which would be dumb to do in first place, and him making up a reason why you two won't get killed at night.

 

Reasons He Look Town:

 

-  Been town for me up til Day 2

-  Was against breadcrumb idea and brought up good explanation of why

-  Could be two townies fighting with one another (ABt/TW) as Mand mentioned

-  ABT/Imran weren't really connected together as a pair until they both came out with a coordinated attack.  There might be a few instances I could find on Day 1 of them a bit, but nothing worth mentioning.  Imran was the main one to really seem to connect the pair more when he suddenly started posting, and his VT comment where the only two he mentioned was you and him.  There is the possibility, Imran purposefully did this.  1.  Help lynch of a town (I think TW is), and 2.  If Imran is scum, tying him and ABT together if ABT is town helps him out tremendously.  If ABT is lynched and found town, most will think Imran is as well since they seem to be agreeing with one another.  If Imran get's lynched and is found to be scum, then it will put a lot of suspicion on ABT and it may help town mislynch ABT who is town. 

 

So for now, I'm giving ABT the benefit of the doubt, to at least not lynch him today.  Why I think Imran is the better option, and it seems some have agreed

 

Okay, after much reading and fact-checking here is what I've found:
 

 

Me and ABT had pretty much indicated on Day 1 that we are VTs..i think someone else did too but I cant remember now...so we were not at the top the scum hit list.

This initially stood out and seemed very suspicious to me. Rhizo noticed too and called you out on it. You gave a decent explanation here - http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/?p=861038 (Post #259)

However upon fact-checking, it does not make much sense. Virtually everyone spoke from a VT point of view. Lyner included. Links below
http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/?p=856287 (Post #30)
http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/?p=856668 (Post #75)

And there may have been more I stopped at that point because it is clear that Lyner was not so ambiguous as you claim. It's clear your argument was false, dishonest, misleading. A kneejerk defensive argument you might expect from a scum. Between that and all the other points TW & Rhizo make, I am pretty convinced Imran is in fact scum with ABT/Whitehead his most likely partners. (I could see CoD instead of AbT though)

So for now, Unvote
Vote Imran

 

 

 

 

Thank you for Canik basically saying what I was planning on, so now I don't have to

[SeaBeeGipson]

oh wow..thats a quick bandwagon. How many is that 5 already? Before I even get a chance to defend myself from TW's BS accusations.
 
Well I am not gonna do that anymore. Just a waste of time and short on time anyway. Also I am a VT so this is actually good for the town. Much better than lynching one of the inactives.
 
When I get lynched, lynch in this order:
 
lynch TW tomorrow
lynch KH the next day
 
If KH turns up town, lynch Rhizo.
 
I dont believe all 3 scum or on my wagon, but I would say there are 2. Rhizo is probably the clueless townie who has no clue how to play this game scum or town. I am pretty sure TW is scum, followed by KH. The 3rd one is probably in the lurker group (iSoc, Rafay or Whitebeard).

So like the beginning of D2, you state you'll make a later post to explain something and wait for someone to post something that allows you to avoid any sort of explaining, hoping people just brush on by it. Definitely coming off as scum, and I'd be extremely surprised if you come up a townie now.

[Rhizoctonia]

I apologize for the wall of text I'm about to make. I've played this entire game on my phone and finally have been able to get to a desktop and actually read over everything. Heres my thoughts on everyone.

 

Mandarijn - Town - Began the discussion to figure out a plan for the town in Post #7, made some good additions during the conversation despite an overlook (AbT as well), but not large enough to convince me hes scum.

 

The Warrior - On the Fence, leaning towards town. - First person to want to discuss plan with Mandarijn, despite random D1 posts in between the two. D1 TW gave off good town vibes, until he began to target Canik/Ferm. I felt he just jumped on the wagon there and refused to bunge, even after Canik made a fairly convincing town post in my opinion. His recent behavior is what is leading me more to the on the fence feel. In Post 274, he mentions alot of things I seen as well reading over the thread, mainly about Imran (get to that later.) but failed to mention Imran addressed some of his concerns earlier in post 257 when Rhizo brought up some of the same points.

 

Canik - Town - Ferm was one of the beginning voices for the no lynch vote, and held true to it. I don't think a scum would hold so strongly towards a no-lynch. Canik also came in and defended the accusations fairly well when he joined. (didnt write post # down. But you know the post I'm referring to.) I feel this is probably the best time to bring up Imran. 

 

Imran - Scum - In post 108, 167, and a few others, he states his issue with voting to lynch someone who hasn't made a single post, yet we should lynch lurkers. However, in post 32, you voted for WB before he even posted. D1 is filled with joke votes, but your response seemed to come off a serious vote for him. As if trying to start a wagon early on, or more likely, space yourself from another scum.  It seems odd you two would vote for each other, post to a OMGUS post, and back off once it was stated it was a "joke". 

 

In post 39, where my issues from reading over D1 really begin, you state Ferm's post are scummy with no real evidence. Nothing developed at this point, but in post 113, you try to start a wagon again. You mention Ferm/Canik being on the fence for stating AbT had some scummy actions, but overall behaves like a townie. Is that not what a majority of people do? Focus on the scummy acts, but pay attention to the overall behavior to avoid a mislynch. However, post 113 seemed to create  a lynch wagon for Canik/Ferm. I wouldn't have had much of  an issue with that except you didnt even vote for Ferm/Canik until the wagon was started in 123 and once people started paying attention to other potential scum, you seemed to have sole focus on Canik/Ferm and tried to resurrect the wagon in  128 and bring attention away from Robert. You stated Canik made a really townie post when he joined, but refused to remove your vote. When did you remove it? Just before the deadline. My guesses are 1) you hoped you could convince someone on the Robert wagon to switch to Canik's while clearing your name by saying he felt like a townie or 2) you didn't want someone looking back in the event Canik was lynched and appeared townie to see you trying to create a wagon.

 

In post 241, you mentioned that Lyner was curious of Tw and Rhizo, but never mentioned Lyner and AbT's constant back and forth. You seemed to be jumping on the new wagon of trying to get TW lynched. In that same post, you mention I came off as scummy but list zero examples. Zero. A statement you've made several times, in my opinion, to test the waters with a potential wagon. 

 

In 244, you mentioned how you were coming off as a VT. Isn't everyone going to? I mean you arent going to come out and say you are a scum. The comment just seemed dead weight to me, but it doesn't really indicate any sort of scum behavior.

 

In 257, you dispute a lot of claims Rhizo made (some familiar to what I mentioned above) and some did give me a slight townie feel from you, however I can't tell if the post is you trying to convince everyone you aren't scum by finding small work-arounds, or if it is truly your reasoning for things.

 

Post 280 really has no weight for me (like 244), but I wanted to bring out how you said RL has been hectic in earlier post and you bring out you'll response later to the accusations. You did this at the beginning of D2 and didn't seem to respond until you had a comfortable stance to jump into. I'm interested if you'll actually address TW concerns or wait until someone else does it for you, or it just rolls over. I am interested in your response.

 

Now for suspect #2, Whitebeard.

Whitebeard - Scum - His very first post is directed at Imran and begins the whole OMGUS ordeal. It felt really scummy looking back at it. I post 57, he states AbT behavior won't get him far, but no reasoning. Even a new player knows to include reasoning in most of your posts. He did vote for a no lynch, but wasn't very active in the discussion so that doesn't indicate scum or town behavior to me. Post 102 starts the weird behavior and leads us to the biggest wtf moment of this thread imo, Post 174. Either Whitebeard is a VT who doesnt care much for this game because he doesn't know how to contribute (in which case, a replacement would be nice.) or hes a scum trying to play off with random, nooby behavior. Even as a new player, Whitebeard's style doesn't fit with noob mistakes. It fits with carelessness or purposely trying to misdirect people.

 

AbT - Town - Early on, Post 70, AbT doesn't react harsh to being accused of being a scum. The way he handled it gave me a townie feel from him. He was very active for a no-lynch, which I doubt any scum would advocate for as much as AbT did. The only scum indicator I really get from him is him being so closely aligned with Imran (which I doubt scum would do, as it'd make them both easy targets) and in Post 226, he mentioned the breadcrumb argument was getting the town nowhere (a point I absolutely agree with, the whole ordeal was pointless.), but continued to participate in the breadcrumb discussion after that post. I just take it as him defending his stance.

 

CoD - Town - Despite not posting alot, the few post he have made have town written on them. He did bring up the point of not ignoring the Vig (something everyone forgot existed at that point) as it would allow the Mafia to ignore their doctor and save their points. It was an overlooked post, but major town points in my opinion as it brought up a good point. We have to keep the scum guessing on what PR our plan will use.

 

Myself - I know my role.

 

Rhizo - On the Fence, leaning scum - Rhizo did spot a flaw in Mandarijn's plan and to me, that was one of the most town-like posts in the thread so far. He voted for no lynch, and was even against the Robert lynch. However, he did try to sneak in the final vote on Canik after Canik made a relatively town post when he joined. Beyond that, he was a large part of the breadcrumb argument that engulfed a lot of D2 and left us with nothing to go on. I felt it was possibly his way of getting the town's attention off of anything relevant. Beyond that, if Rhizo and Imran are both scum and are constantly arguing with each other. Say we lynch one, and they turn up scum. The only would feel safe as he'd appear to be a townie for leading the charge and the town would ignore him, mislynch, and discover this plan too late.

 

So, in my opinion, the 3 scum are Imran, Whitebeard, and possibly Rhizo.

 

Vote Imran. 

 

If Imran is scum, Whitebeard would be the next target. However, if Imran is a townie (hopefully not a PR if he does get lynched), it might indicate either Rhizo or TW being a scum. We'd have some information to head into D3 with.

 

 

I was so sold you were townie up to this point.  Now with your reasons for suspecting me, I'm not so much.

 

Let's start looking at why.

 

My actions:

 

1.  Adamant about not lynching an inactive in Robert on day 1.  He is found to be town.  Do you think a scum would try this hard to not lynch a townie when it was already pretty sure.  Ok, so one can say it's just a plot to make me look town. fine

 

2.  I was against the breadcrumb idea and supplied everyone with holes, for which I looked to help town not make a mistake.  Ok, a positive town point for doing so.  But, maybe it's an easy way of looking townie.  Fine

 

3.  I'm the first to suspect and vote on Day 2 on Imran.  This, a person you believe is scum along with others.  Ok, so this could just be him looking to distance himself from a scum.  Fine

 

4.  Whitebeard - who is on your list of scum besides me and Imran.  Except TW, I was pushing a lynch on him the hardest.  I said multiple times that I think we should go either Whitebeard or Canik as they at least said some things that came off scummish.

 

So going off your list of who you think are scum, I have personally looked to push a lynch on 2 of the 3(other being myself).  I mean unless I'm the most selfish scum player ever to look to lynch both my scum partners you suspect and look to do it the rest of the way on my own, on Day 2 nonetheless...this makes no sense.  I would literally have to play the perfect scum role to look to gain town points for being adamant against lynching someone who was town, look to positively help town by finding holes in a plan many were sold on already, and look to personally call out and push for a lynch on both scum partners (at least going off your list) to make sure I stay hidden and seen as town..all the while, before day 2 even ends.  Do you really think as a scum, the other 2 would honestly have me trying to get them lynched to just make me look town on day 2?  Damn..if i get lynched after all that, I couldn't be mad, just laugh a bit.  I sure would of went out of my way to look townish more then any scum ever.

 

 

However, he did try to sneak in the final vote on Canik after Canik made a relatively town post when he joined

 

I didn't suddenly just vote Fermion out of the blue...i was pushing if anyone, it be Fermion/Canik or Whitebeard before I even voted.  I said I was going to likely vote Fermion/Whitebeard before I did later on.  I explained my reasoning both before Canik took over, and after.  I didn't sneak anything, I made it known early the two I was likely voting for....and nonetheless, my vote still wouldn't of been the vote that killed him.  Robert had 4 votes already, and if Kevin does as TW did in the other game, if there's a tie, it's the first one to get enough at deadline that get's lynched.  So it would of been Robert. 

 

Beyond that, he was a large part of the breadcrumb argument that engulfed a lot of D2 and left us with nothing to go on. I felt it was possibly his way of getting the town's attention off of anything relevant.

 

Lol on this.  Canik was the one who kept pushing it, after I told Canik on day 1 that it was already proved to be a bad idea, to look back.  He continued to post on Day 2, trying to argue for it.  I then basically rehashed for him why it was bad so we could get past it.  I don't know how that's something damning of me, I was not the one who looked to keep bringing it up, I thought we were past it.  If you're going to use that as a reason to lynch someone, your suspicion should be on the one who kept bringing it up and calling me out for ignoring his breadcrumb argument until I finally laid it out for him.  

 

 

Beyond that, if Rhizo and Imran are both scum and are constantly arguing with each other. Say we lynch one, and they turn up scum. The only would feel safe as he'd appear to be a townie for leading the charge and the town would ignore him, mislynch, and discover this plan too late.

 

 

 

If you honestly think we can fake the drama that has occurred between me and Imran in this mafia game...then I really don't know what to say honestly lol.  I hate that it has brought this anger between the two of us, as I like Imran as a person, but alas it has.

 

Now, as far as moving on from that. With this information, it is likely someone on the Robert wagon is a scum. I know I'm part of the wagon, even casting the killing vote, but it's a point that needs to be brought up. I'm going to end my assumptions from what happened so far at that. Interesting to hear what others make of this

 

 

It's funny you said this the first post of the new day, and yet you haven't suspected a single person on that list.  You haven't called any out this whole time, and now your list of 3 scum are no one that voted for Robert.  

 

 

And lastly, another suspicious thing with you involves Imran.  I find it weird Imran chose you tbh as a person of suspicion.  His reasoning are very easy to make, you were the lynching vote on Robert and his hollow statement your posts are scummy without any info.  I planned to bring up this theory day 3 after Imran was killed for people to think about, but since this is as good as time as ever, I could see Imran calling out your name to make people believe you're town.  If he's found to be scum, anyone he suspects suddenly start to look a lot less scummy because scum was pushing to get you lynched.  His vote on TW makes sense, he is the one that the pressure was on when he came back from inactivity...though yours not so much.  It doesn't make sense for him to start listing a bunch of townies as suspicious if he's a scum (he already would basically clear TW's name)...then if he's found to be scum there's a list of people to check off the list.  Instead, adding a fellow scum to his suspicious list helps maybe clear your name if he was lynched.  His reason for being suspicious of you is quite an easy remark to make, and hardly enough to lynch over.

 

But either way, it wont bother me if you successfully get a lynch on me....I've already welcomed it. Then the rest of town can revert back to this comment I made.

 

And with this post, I think I've answered/hit on everything I needed to, off to spend some free time elsewhere

[Ali bin Turban]

Rhizo I don't know why you have problems when talking about D1 and D2 actions in the same sentence. I'll leave it to you and wont delve into it.

 

But still you're contradicting yourself now when talking about D1. First you say:

 

"it would make sense for you to take your vote off Fermion if you were scum in case he was lynched...as you would be part of lynching a town in this scenerio"

 

Then you say it wouldn't have any impact:

 

"A mislynch this early isn't going to make people suspicious...look at the mislynch on Robert...it's been hardly talked about nor anyone involved suspected."

 

And one more of your accusations (#249 post):

 

"No, instead you hid from the lynch vote because you knew Robert was town and didn't want to be involved in a lynching of a town."

 

So what's your opinion on that? It constantly changes the way that suits you.

 

 

I'm also curious how is not having much to go on good for lynching. I got totally opposite experience in TW's game. It took a lot of time and a lot of proofs to convince others you were a scum. Everyone preferred to lynch inactives. Noone was voting on even halfactive players, because as opposite to lurkers/inactives people demand hard facts to lynch them.

I don't find logic here and I believe you're just crafting those opinions for the sake of not agreeing. 

 

So far you've used to attack me:

 

- My OOC post.

- My post I've made awful comment for which I've apologized immediately. You've admitted you know I've apologized, though it didn't stopped you from using it just to get dramatic effect of "Why you so understanding with them and not me?" (Even though I've never said it was about you. In fact it was about Finster, who I've already told was less active than you).

- Changing your opinions on a whim.

 

I just don't know why are you doing this. Is this your grudge and trying to get revenge on me or are you a scum that will not back from anything?

[Ali bin Turban]

 

Ignore the timeline for just a second and look strictly at what Lyner said. Which phrase is more potentially damning when considering that the person who said it was killed that same night? Just because Lyner mentions Rhizo and I later in the day than his exchange with you seems irrelevant to me. If he had a reason to suspect either of us other than that we seemed a bit suspicious he would have said it instead of leaving it at that.

 

Now, even factoring in the timeline of events, unless I'm mistaken (please correct me if I am) I don't recall Lyner ever saying "I was wrong about ABT, I believe he is town" after your exchange with him. So he still had reason to suspect you as well even if he mentioned Rhizo and myself after you. Killing Lyner at night was just a convenient play for the scum to make no matter who looked more suspicious (You, Me, Rhizo, or anyone else who Lyner commented on) since it could be used against any of us.

 

Nah, I can't ignore timeline. Ignoring timeline is like taking words out of context. Without context you can try to mold the truth as you wish - and that's what you're trying to do. Timeline is a chain of events, it's the foundation of logic, an environment that binds action and reaction.

 

Lyner was clear who he seemed suspicious (just "a bit" - to be clear), he didn't mentioned anyone else - and should I felt scummy to him, there were no reason he wouldn't mention me among others he suspected. That's all. Everything else is your manipulation.

I don't think doing prophet out of Lyner is a good idea. I don't think I've put much impact on his words (apart from saying that I agree with his feeling about you). But when you keep backing to it, I'm going to call you out on your manipulations.

[Ali bin Turban]

(Even though I've never said it was about you. In fact it was about Finster, who I've already told was less active than you).

Well and Yehom's "not caring about the game anymore" ( ) ... I guess it's better to be precise here, before anyone gets the idea to start nitpicking.

[Ali bin Turban]

KH, to be honest I'm not advocating no-lynch. I'm far from it and I tell that risking your opinion change:P

 

BTW that's interesting, because when I've posted my scenario list I though the conclusion is to lynch, yet Whitebeard for instance came in with opposite conclusions. Now I see you draw similar conclusion. That's no accusation, more like a note to myself.

 

Also I'm not convinced about your take on CoD. He's so far quite content with the flow of the game and not feeling the need to participate. I'd say he's genuinely outraged by Rhizo's walls (which are indeed tiresome to read), but then again he says he's experienced player, so he should know his actions (or rather lack of them) are not putting him in a good light.

 

As for Imran, I don't feel his scumminess. I don't understand his remarks about VT, but I don't think that's enough to lynch him. Good enough to pressure him (but everything is good to put pressure on anyone - that's one way of playing) to see how he reacts. I don't feel his random votes and OMGUS'es are any scum indicators.

I don't mind pressing him (I don't mind pressing anyone - finding a scum or a town - it's the same method), though I believe no town will like to get him into 6 votes for insta lynch (as it will rob us out of information).

[SeaBeeGipson]

KH, to be honest I'm not advocating no-lynch. I'm far from it and I tell that risking your opinion change:P
 
BTW that's interesting, because when I've posted my scenario list I though the conclusion is to lynch, yet Whitebeard for instance came in with opposite conclusions. Now I see you draw similar conclusion. That's no accusation, more like a note to myself.
 
Also I'm not convinced about your take on CoD. He's so far quite content with the flow of the game and not feeling the need to participate. I'd say he's genuinely outraged by Rhizo's walls (which are indeed tiresome to read), but then again he says he's experienced player, so he should know his actions (or rather lack of them) are not putting him in a good light.
 
As for Imran, I don't feel his scumminess. I don't understand his remarks about VT, but I don't think that's enough to lynch him. Good enough to pressure him (but everything is good to put pressure on anyone - that's one way of playing) to see how he reacts. I don't feel his random votes and OMGUS'es are any scum indicators.
I don't mind pressing him (I don't mind pressing anyone - finding a scum or a town - it's the same method), though I believe no town will like to get him into 6 votes for insta lynch (as it will rob us out of information).

By this point most everyone active has been pressured. Imran in the only one respond in my opinion giving us a reason to not vote for him. Take Rhizo for example. I claim he appears scummy, as have other people, and he defends his points of views, corrects where there is flaws in the accusations and moves from there. Despite him claiming anyone who opposing him is a scum, when he's poked, he actually responds for us to get a feel for him. TW and yourself do the same thing. Imran, however, posts "I'll have my response soon." And waits for someone else to leave an opening for him to draw on instead of at least countering one point against him. His rebuttal? He's a VT and when he dies lynch X, Y, and Z. If he is a townie, he needs to try to defend himself from a mislynch. When he barely responded to TW's accusations and his response to my accusations, by that point, I feel it's safe to say Imran is scum. If he isn't, which I highly doubt at this point unless he can make some miracle hail Mary post, we can move from there.

As far as CoD, he does appear to be townie to me from his limited posts, but no one has really pressured him yet to react. He can see how several people at this point react to being called scum (WB reacts, I don't even know how to explain that. Rhizo reacts with a wall of text, accuses the other person of being scum, but defends his points. TW, has addressed alot of points from you and Imran jumping to get him lynched, but has a few scum-like remarks in there. Like wanting to cop to investigate him, with the several holes that idea poses.)

I think at this point, it's safe to say we've poked Imran enough and have a good read on him.

Now, Rhizo. As far as me stating a scum being on Robert's lynch wagon. That's still in the air. I'm almost certain Imran is scum, and Whitebeard is high on my list. That third spot, the one you were filling in on my previous post, is flexible. Rafay is still in question, and despite CoD giving me a Townie feel, once the pressure starts to hit him, he may appear different. Mandarijn is more than likely town, so I'd remove him from that list and I know I'm on that wagon, and I'm open to explaining my reasoning as I said before. Robert, as an inactive, was more harmful than good and by lynching him, getting whether he was town or scum, we could evaluate the wagon. With everything going on D2 between you, TW, AbT and Imran, I feel looking into the wagon can wait. We're having much better information appear from where we are now, but I'm open to pressuring the wagon.
(OoC) got to cut this short, wanted to explain more. Son just hurt himself. (ooc)

KH, to be honest I'm not advocating no-lynch. I'm far from it and I tell that risking your opinion change:P
 
BTW that's interesting, because when I've posted my scenario list I though the conclusion is to lynch, yet Whitebeard for instance came in with opposite conclusions. Now I see you draw similar conclusion. That's no accusation, more like a note to myself.
 
Also I'm not convinced about your take on CoD. He's so far quite content with the flow of the game and not feeling the need to participate. I'd say he's genuinely outraged by Rhizo's walls (which are indeed tiresome to read), but then again he says he's experienced player, so he should know his actions (or rather lack of them) are not putting him in a good light.
 
As for Imran, I don't feel his scumminess. I don't understand his remarks about VT, but I don't think that's enough to lynch him. Good enough to pressure him (but everything is good to put pressure on anyone - that's one way of playing) to see how he reacts. I don't feel his random votes and OMGUS'es are any scum indicators.
I don't mind pressing him (I don't mind pressing anyone - finding a scum or a town - it's the same method), though I believe no town will like to get him into 6 votes for insta lynch (as it will rob us out of information).

By this point most everyone active has been pressured. Imran in the only one respond in my opinion giving us a reason to not vote for him. Take Rhizo for example. I claim he appears scummy, as have other people, and he defends his points of views, corrects where there is flaws in the accusations and moves from there. Despite him claiming anyone who opposing him is a scum, when he's poked, he actually responds for us to get a feel for him. TW and yourself do the same thing. Imran, however, posts "I'll have my response soon." And waits for someone else to leave an opening for him to draw on instead of at least countering one point against him. His rebuttal? He's a VT and when he dies lynch X, Y, and Z. If he is a townie, he needs to try to defend himself from a mislynch. When he barely responded to TW's accusations and his response to my accusations, by that point, I feel it's safe to say Imran is scum. If he isn't, which I highly doubt at this point unless he can make some miracle hail Mary post, we can move from there.

As far as CoD, he does appear to be townie to me from his limited posts, but no one has really pressured him yet to react. He can see how several people at this point react to being called scum (WB reacts, I don't even know how to explain that. Rhizo reacts with a wall of text, accuses the other person of being scum, but defends his points. TW, has addressed alot of points from you and Imran jumping to get him lynched, but has a few scum-like remarks in there. Like wanting to cop to investigate him, with the several holes that idea poses.)

I think at this point, it's safe to say we've poked Imran enough and have a good read on him.

Now, Rhizo. As far as me stating a scum being on Robert's lynch wagon. That's still in the air. I'm almost certain Imran is scum, and Whitebeard is high on my list. That third spot, the one you were filling in on my previous post, is flexible. Rafay is still in question, and despite CoD giving me a Townie feel, once the pressure starts to hit him, he may appear different. Mandarijn is more than likely town, so I'd remove him from that list and I know I'm on that wagon, and I'm open to explaining my reasoning as I said before. Robert, as an inactive, was more harmful than good and by lynching him, getting whether he was town or scum, we could evaluate the wagon. With everything going on D2 between you, TW, AbT and Imran, I feel looking into the wagon can wait. We're having much better information appear from where we are now, but I'm open to pressuring the wagon.
(OoC) got to cut this short, wanted to explain more. Son just hurt himself. (ooc)

[Canik]

KH in post #262 suggested the idea of using the Vigilante to take out two people to get extra information today. Instinct says it's a bad idea but thought I'd go ahead and do some math on it since no one else has.

11-2=9
11-3=8

9-2=7-2=5-2=3
8-2=6-2=4-2=2

Assuming we don't use Vig again and we find no scum, not using him today would give us 1 extra mislynch. Also 1 extra shot for the town power roles. A couple shots for the Vig & Jailkeep towards the end when we have more info could be big. So yeah, seems like this is a bad idea to me. Though not terrible, if we had unlimited shots it might be worth it.