459 replies to this topic

[Ali bin Turban]

I'm not going to respond to wall of texts now, since I got no time in the morning. Just want to mention general insight. This game is pretty much over. Scums have made a terrible mistake by going va banque while they don't have numbers to overpower town. There are clearly two sides here:

 

-  TW, Rhizo (both undeniably connected after Rhizo's passionate defense) and KH which came in "Finster style" recently (drawing his own "conclusions" but not bothering to state what is his reasoning).

- Me, Imran and Canik - I don't recall much cooperation between me and Imran for instance, but for the sake of argument, let's assume we are team.

 

 

1. There can't be 6 scum. One of the team has to be clear and one guilty (theoretically there's a slight chance teams are mixed, but for now I leave it in the 'possible but not probable' area).

2. No matter how we start it, in no more than 2 tries we'll determine scum team:

  - We Lynch TW - he turns out to be Scum: we continue lynching that team

                           - he turns out to be Town: we switch to other team. 

  - We can even start lynching people from my group. We can even start by lynching me. I does not matter at all. We won't make more than one mistake and we can afford it. No matter what scums most probably have lost this game.

[SeaBeeGipson]

I'm not going to respond to wall of texts now, since I got no time in the morning. Just want to mention general insight. This game is pretty much over. Scums have made a terrible mistake by going va banque while they don't have numbers to overpower town. There are clearly two sides here:
 
-  TW, Rhizo (both undeniably connected after Rhizo's passionate defense) and KH which came in "Finster style" recently (drawing his own "conclusions" but not bothering to state what is his reasoning).
- Me, Imran and Canik - I don't recall much cooperation between me and Imran for instance, but for the sake of argument, let's assume we are team.
 
 
1. There can't be 6 scum. One of the team has to be clear and one guilty (theoretically there's a slight chance teams are mixed, but for now I leave it in the 'possible but not probable' area).
2. No matter how we start it, in no more than 2 tries we'll determine scum team:
  - We Lynch TW - he turns out to be Scum: we continue lynching that team
                           - he turns out to be Town: we switch to other team. 
  - We can even start lynching people from my group. We can even start by lynching me. I does not matter at all. We won't make more than one mistake and we can afford it. No matter what scums most probably have lost this game.

With that idea we can get a game plan going. We can lynch a member of one side (if that's what you want to call it) and have the Vig take out a member of the other. There are obvious cons. 1) We could essentially eliminate 2 town in one day. 2) the Vig would use up a X value from the cop. However, if the cop can hit a scum by his 3rd try, that 4th can go to the Vig for this instance. 3) is the Vig active enough to even participate for this?

We could essentially figure out alot of information for this setup imo. Say we lynch TW and the Vig kills Imran, we can get some results. If TW is scum, we go with you and start lynching our side. If Imran is scum, we start lynching y'all. In the chance they both are scum, my theory from early would be the most concrete reasoning imo. If both are town, the only bad side of this, we're down 2 townies and in a rough situation.

Ibe been awake for about 30hours so excuse my grammar and if this even makes sense

[Mandarijn]

Djeezes 

 

From the limited games I played I've learned that most of these heated arguments are between townies (although there are some exceptions, hint: Rhizo But I doubt he would make this mistake so soon again as he wasn't really suspected yet...).

I have also learned that scum will support ideas/thoughts of townies to give themself town credit, so Imran could be doing this to Ali or the other way around, or Rhizo and TW.

My guess is there's probably only 1 scum in the 2 lists Ali posted (might be 2)...

 

We should not be focussing on this, as this gives the opportunity to all the others (including me, but iSoc, Rafay and WB in particular) to just lurk around and if even one of them is scum they'll win as they will not participate if they're not pushed and we'll have no information whatsoever.

 

I understand the urge to lynch one of the active ones, but scum will kill the actives any way and you'll be able to see the teams, etc. after that. We have good indications on Rhizo, Ali, TW and Imran now. If one of them gets killed (and they will as scum won't win if they keep all the active scum hunters alive, they rather keep the lurkers/inactives alive). Now we need to look/push for everyone else to get information on their alignment.

 

So we really should be pressuring the lurkers/inactives to participate or be replaced. As those 3 will win/lose the game for the town as has been proven in the games I've played and if they can just survive till the end we've lost (scum will never kill them)...

 

So I didn't want to vote earlier, but I'm gonna restart the wagon on Rafay to see if he starts talking again... (I know iSoc or WB are good candidates as well, but Rafay's increased activity on D1 to protect himself for me is an indication he might be scum this time)

 

Vote: Rafay

 

 

Also my updated list as now we've gotten a bunch of information:

- Chaplain and Canik: no real read either way

- Ali/TW/Rhizo/Imran: probably only 1 of them is scum who didn't really want to get in this situation, my guess would be Imran or TW

- Rafay is at the top of my list, he's doing nothing except when pressured = typical scum behavior

- KH seems town, he's new and trying to participate

- WB and iSoc: both doing nothing, could be either

[KevinH]

Vote Count:

The Warrior (2): Ali bin Turban, Imran Ehsan,
iSocialism (2): Whitebeard, Canik,
Whitebeard (1): The Warrior,
King Hitler (1): Rafay,
Imran Ehsan (1): Rhizoctonia,
Rafay (1): Mandarijn,
Rhizoctonia (0):
Canik (0):
Chaplain of Death (0):
Ali bin Turban (0)
Mandarijn (0)

No lynch (0):

Not voting: iSocialism, Chaplain of Death, King Hitler,

 

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch or 3 at deadline.
Deadline is 13:00 EDT Sunday, June 12.

[The Warrior]

Holy hell there is a lot to respond to. I am going to respond to each post in individual posts.

 

Responding further to TW. I see you're defending your argument that:

 

"By all means ABT, go ahead and continue your quest to have me lynched. I'm sure that the mafia will appreciate you wasting your time and everyone else's. The rest of the town on the other hand will not appreciate it."

 

I don't see why a town would use this argument (desperate one, sure - desperate ones tend to make desperate moves). It has no discussion value, it's just an emotional attack. Town that's wrongly accused will try to explain his motives and reasoning because it's natural for him. He's not afraid because he's done nothing wrong - after all he's a town. Scum does not have that comfort (obviously he can't explain his motives) so he's prone to respond emotionally.

 

When someone refuses to see reason or consider other possibilities you aren't left with much other choice than to respond like this. I am making sure that the rest of the town knows that *if* I am lynched and *when* I come up as town that it was you and now Imran who wasted the town's time completely and should be under the microscope.

 

Secondly, I don't see you pressing people to post. Posting "People need to post more" or stating obvious facts "iSocialism is lurking, he could be a scum" is no pressure. That's just repeating what everyone thinks. What did you do about Lyner apart from writing "Lyner needs to post more" i one of your many summaries? Did it make Lyner post more? Or maybe it was me who prodded him and forced into more active stance? 

You're forced to be active, because everyone would notice your lurking instantly (it would be extremely odd for a generally active person to lurk) so you're active in a way that gives town little benefits.

 

What else would you like me to do then to draw attention to the people who aren't participating? I already cast my vote multiple times for one of them. It's pretty damn difficult to force someone to post who refuses to. And why the hell should they at this point? With you and Imran attacking the way you are they don't need to say anything. They can continue to lurk and watch. If any of them are scum they will want to wait to see if you can get me lynched without having to potentially out themselves. If they are town they will also sit there and watch so that they don't either say something stupid and cast suspicion on themselves or participate in the lynching of another townie and look suspicious tomorrow.

 

 

Thirdly your theories about me are extremely weak.

 

1. During D1 I spend a lot of time on theory-craft and after 20 days when I make a statement on D2 that we finally need to start focusing on people instead of theories that's a proof I'm in your eyes trying to disorganize town? Why would I spend a lot of time before on trying to organize town then? Care to explain that?

Also that "wild-ass-guessing", as you call scum hunting, is the very essence of mafia and we will not get away from it, because cop won't be able to find every scum for us. It surely hasn't stopped you from reassuring everyone that you're ready to jump on robert's bandwagon should there be less votes than required to lynch him.

 

Your actions on day 1 are notable for the town. Having said that: We didn't figure out what we wanted to actually do moving forward. Trying to organize and being organized are not the same thing. We decided on a few things not to do, but that's it. Why should we abandon strategizing just because it's day 2? Once again I'll ask you, why does scum hunting have to preclude continuing to strategize? I don't think you ever actually answered this or if you did I missed it amongst the other crap you posted.

 

2. Your other theory:

 

ABT is scum and thought Lyner could be the cop or killed him because of Lyner's comment about not forgetting about ABT's attempt to lynch him in the later days.

 

Are you're suggesting that I've started to poke Lyner at the end of the day just to kill him at night? Or maybe you're suggesting that I've got scared by his remark so much that I've killed him?

 

I was suggesting that it was a possible explanation as to why Lyner was targeted at night. Imran made the following comment about Lyner being targeted:

i. Lyner was targetted because he was keeping a low profile. Scum thought he may be cop. Agreed on this part with ABT.

ii. Lyner also was suspicious of TW and Rhizo. So its also possible one (or both) TW or Rhizo is scum and with Lyner acting like a cop (see point i) scum new there is a very big chance they will get investigated and hence caught as scum. So they could not take that chance and had to take out Lyner. If this is true one (or both) of TW and Rhizo is scum.

 

So do you agree with Imran on this point? If so, why is it that Lyner dying only incriminates me? Or Rhizo for the matter? If either of you are scum and suspected Lyner could be the cop, you would surely want him dead too so you wouldn't get investigated, right? Or is that only something that people other than you would do?

 

 

[The Warrior]

Wow, this game has made interesting turn and it seems it'll end really quick .

 

1. You asked why I've suspected TW and not Canik and I've answered:

 

In my eyes there's a big difference between Canik and TW. Canik is new, may have missed some posts, etc (so he got benefit of a doubt at the beginning). Secondly when you ask Canik why has he chosen to support it, he starts explaining it, shows some numbers. He's working on the idea, putting some effort. Maybe I've weakness for people that use reason, but Canik feels genuine in his efforts, even though I don't agree with them. Finally as I said, breadcrumbing is to little for me to believe someone's a scum...and I believe there's nothing more we could accuse him of (please correct me if I'm wrong).

As for TW, I don't really know why he supports it and it's suspicious to me. I'm trying to ask him about it and I get some evasive answers, emotional trips and accusations.

 

I supported the idea because I believe we have to protect the cop's information if/when he is killed. We all agree that the cop is working on borrowed time. With 11 people left alive and 3 scums in the game the odds of the mafia's role cop finding the cop tonight are 12.5% (1-in-8). The odds of the role cop finding a town power role are 37.5% (3-in-8). If we assume that the mafia's role cop used his action on night one and has confirmed information on one other alive townie (assuming they haven't found the cop already) that makes their odds of finding the cop tonight 14.28% (1-in-7) if we didn't lynch anyone today and 16.66% (1-in-6) if we do lynch today.

 

I supported the breadcrumb idea because I did not see a better strategy proposed at the time that would get us the cop's confirmed information before we lose him. Are there holes in the plan? Sure, but there isn't going to be a perfect plan for us unfortunately. At least that one would have given us some idea of what we could look for.

 

 

3. "You call out TW for saying for a cop to invesitagte him.  You're already looking for a way to setup him as scum no matter what". So you're also thinking setting up a cop investigation in a game with framer is a good idea? Pointing out it benefits scum is "beyond hard"? Also what's about that "fixating"? What kind of argument is that? How do you differentiate between someone fixating and someone that's suspicious and is looking for evidence?

 

You are dead set on me and not being even willing to consider that you are wrong. That is why I suggested that the cop investigate me. I was clear when I suggested it that it would be a "waste" of the cop's action because assuming the framer doesn't frame me, I am going to turn up as a townie. The reason that this isn't really a waste (although I would prefer that our cop find an actual scum) is that it would allow the cop to at least be sure that I am not scum. Then he wouldn't have to sit there in the coming days wondering if he has to worry about me after your crusade against me.

 

The odds are already strongly in favor of the cop finding a townie anyway 72.72% (8-in-11) without a lynch today or 70% (7-in-10) with a lynch today. With the odds already heavily favoring him returning a townie result on someone it might as well be someone whose name he could clear (if the cop even doubts that I'm town at this point). Or would you rather he investigate someone like Mandarijn or King Hitler who he might already have a good feeling about and then would actually be "wasting" his action?

 

If the mafia would choose to use one of their actions framing me tonight then one of the following will occur:

1) I am a townie who will show up as scum. Then you can go ahead and lynch me anyway as soon as the cop chooses to reveal that he found me to be scum.

2) I actually am scum, the framer's result will still show that I'm scum, and you can go ahead and lynch me anyway as soon as the cop chooses to reveal that he found me to be scum.

 

Worst case scenario for the town is that I get framed and the cop wasted an action on a false positive scum return and I am set up to be lynched tomorrow anyway. If this scenario were to play out there would at least be a silver lining for the town:

1) The mafia wasted one of their night actions that the role cop could have used to find our cop.

2) The town does not incorrectly lynch me during the day today and forces the scum to kill me at night if they want me dead. This would at least protect another townie from dying tonight and protect the town from losing 2 more people before day 3 begins (me today and a second townie tonight).

 

5. Lyner's case: I think most of the people will agree that scum's priority is to take out cop as soon as possible. Most usually cop will not go actively scum hunting - because that's what usually gets people killed at night. Good mafia will not shoot people randomly, they'll look for behavior patterns that may give away high value targets they're looking for.  Killing someone to frame someone else is terrible idea. Which statement is right? "Y is a scum because X pointed at him and now is dead" / " Scum are trying to frame Y by killing X"? You never know. You may agree or not with suspicions that killed guy had, but that's all. But hey, since that's fairy tale for you, I got some "reasonable" explanation from your pal, TW:

 

"1) Rafay is scum and figured that Lyner would eventually end up voting to lynch him at a later time."

 

I already addressed this particular argument in my last post. Imran said it himself that both himself and you ABT thought that Lyner could be the cop. So if we all believed Lyner to be the cop, why exactly would him dying only incriminate Rhizo or myself? Why doesn't that incriminate you and/or Imran as well especially considering your exchange with him? Never mind I think I get it: It only incriminates Rhizo or myself because it isn't you or Imran. That makes sense.

[The Warrior]

I missed an earlier post by Imran so here it is:

 

You ignored the scenario I posted. If you were scum and you thought Lyner was the cop (because of his keeping a low profile) and him posting clearly that you and Rhizo look suspicious to him, you would think there is a high probability of Cop Lyner to investigate you at night. So, even though you knew killing him will put you on the spotlight on the next day it is still better than the cop investigating you and confirming 100% you are scum. In this scenario, taking out the cop is a lot more beneficial to the town instead of other active players who are scum hunting. Me and ABT had pretty much indicated on Day 1 that we are VTs..i think someone else did too but I cant remember now...so we were not at the top the scum hit list.

 

This exact same argument can be used against ABT and to a somewhat lesser extent, you. If you were scum and you thought Lyner was the cop there would be just as high a probability that cop Lyner would investigate ABT at night because of their exchanges with one another (which were more than just a passing "TW's posts are sort of scummy" comment). If you are scum and ABT is scum you would have just as much reason to have Lyner killed at night as anyone else would even though the spotlight might be on you because it would still be better than the cop investigating either of you and confirming that you or ABT was 100% scum.

[Imran Ehsan]

So do you agree with Imran on this point? If so, why is it that Lyner dying only incriminates me? Or Rhizo for the matter? If either of you are scum and suspected Lyner could be the cop, you would surely want him dead too so you wouldn't get investigated, right? Or is that only something that people other than you would do?

 

Please link me the post where Lyner thought I was scum.

[The Warrior]

I didn't say that Lyner thought you were scum. I said that if ABT and you were scum there would be just as much of a reason for you to want him gone as ABT.

[Ali bin Turban]

I missed an earlier post by Imran so here it is:

 

 

 

You ignored the scenario I posted. If you were scum and you thought Lyner was the cop (because of his keeping a low profile) and him posting clearly that you and Rhizo look suspicious to him, you would think there is a high probability of Cop Lyner to investigate you at night. So, even though you knew killing him will put you on the spotlight on the next day it is still better than the cop investigating you and confirming 100% you are scum. In this scenario, taking out the cop is a lot more beneficial to the town instead of other active players who are scum hunting. Me and ABT had pretty much indicated on Day 1 that we are VTs..i think someone else did too but I cant remember now...so we were not at the top the scum hit list.

 

This exact same argument can be used against ABT and to a somewhat lesser extent, you. If you were scum and you thought Lyner was the cop there would be just as high a probability that cop Lyner would investigate ABT at night because of their exchanges with one another (which were more than just a passing "TW's posts are sort of scummy" comment). If you are scum and ABT is scum you would have just as much reason to have Lyner killed at night as anyone else would even though the spotlight might be on you because it would still be better than the cop investigating either of you and confirming that you or ABT was 100% scum.

Though, have you actually asked yourself, why would I prod Lyner if I were a scum? What would I expect to gain if I though he was a cop? And doing that just a day before deadline? Just to kill him at night?

 

To be clear I don't consider Lyner's death to be pointing at anyone. I may share his opinion about you, but that's all. Every death can be explained both way - "guy was going after a scum" or "scums used the fact that he was going after town to frame him" so it's no argument.

[Imran Ehsan]

I didn't say that Lyner thought you were scum. I said that if ABT and you were scum there would be just as much of a reason for you to want him gone as ABT.

 

Thats a pretty strange argument.  Lyner clearly pointed out you and Rhizo as the two he suspects most. So if at least one of you were scum and you thought he was the cop you wont want to take the chance that he investigates you at night.

 

If I was not suspected by Lynr why would I want him killed. You may say ABT may want him killed (but at the end of the day he did not put ABT in his shortlist for scum) but you are stretching wayy too far to include me in there as well. Pretty mind boggling argument.

[Ali bin Turban]

Rhizo, getting back to Canik and TW.

 

1. TW got my attention earlier (here's the trace, last sentence: http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-7#entry857642).

I'm always suspicious about posts like that one: http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-7#entry857927 , since I find it spammy due to it containing just rehashed common knowledge (posting summaries is one of the scum's indication).

But I take it was obfuscated and very hard to notice.

 

2. Then it comes http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-10#entry858999 . This is another scum's indication for me. Canik gets benefit of a doubt, TW does not. His answer is evasive and that's yet another scum's indication for me. Still that's not the point I've voted on him. At that moment I was prodding Lyner and my vote was on him and not on TW.

 

3. New day. Lyner turns out to be dead. Canik keeps discussing breadcrumbs topic. He tries to explain himself and show his reasoning and that's not scummy action. TW is most suspicious so I'm placing my vote on him to start pressuring him (http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-11). You'll find there "no-substance-posts" argument there, so that's nothing new.

 

What I realize now is that indeed your perception might have been that I've been basing only on breadcrumbing. Stating that you've lied is therefore farfetched and may be incorrect.

However: 

  - If I were scum and Canik was town it would be stupid of me to try and lynch TW. I would join you in accusing him, or what's better I'd keep my vote on Fermion.

  - If I were scum and Canik was scum it would also be stupid of me to try and lynch TW using something my scum buddy is doing as a reason.

  - If I were scum targeting TW in general would be extremely stupid of me. There are so many other targets, that can't even fight back. For instance voting on Whitebeard along with TW. Voting on iSoc or Rafay. Why would I risk?

 

4. TW could have chosen to be calm and rational. He's instead chosen non-rational arguments (including "I'm a town" "argument" - was there any game where scum said he's not town but a scum? It's not verifiable so it bears no value) and that was another indication for me. He also asked to be investigated in a framer's game, which was a big scum indication.

 

As for a Framer, I don't read KevinH posts at all (except at the end of the Day), just scrolling through, so I've missed his explanation. Even though that creates different outcomes it's still irrational to ask for investigation. There's to much risk of framer spoiling the result (why shouldn't he?). What would we do after getting "guilty" result (which we would almost certainly get)?

 

Rest of your arguments is just showing some random people doing random things. I'm not sure why don't you realize that single action does not matter on its own. Mandarjin's posting general posts? Great (it also shows that tiny detail - Mandarjin is not trying to suggest to anyone that he's town). Now show me some other proofs. Why don't you start talking with him, ask him some questions and see if he gives you answers or tries to evade. That's what this game is about.

 

We'll I do realize why you writing all/some of this. This piece clearly shows you've grudge against me and treat it personally.

 

I hate when people get really cheap and bring RL as an excuse: "I don't have time to play", "I don't care about this game anymore" ... yet they lurk on. That's the lowest scum can fall in order to save his hide

 

 

This I completely disagreed with, and think it's a bit low of you.  I for one know this...i for one dealt with this in two mafia games, and times will in this one.  I was forced to take time away I had with my wife (which at times is little) because I was being suspected in both games, and had I not taken the time I would of been lynched for sure. I
was a SK and a scum, but neither my roles were any reason for not posting or strategy, it was real life getting in the way.  So I have sympathy for people who have this happen to them.  Normally I'd let it go, but yet Imran was one to call me out for it in past games and made me take time away to do so, you were one of them, so I'm not so quickly to give something that was not given to me, understanding.  But yet...you make this remark and Imran has been inactive and not posting up til today, yet you didn't call him out or suspect him like you did with me and others in other games.  COD has had the same thing in this game, you haven't called him out either.  Why not?  Is somehow they different then me?  Is somehow their real life more important then mine was in the past?  Why you so understanding with them and not me?

I think it was not just a bit but very low of me. That's why I've apologized for this 5 posts later (just in here: http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-8#entry858347). I'm sorry you're still holding it. I'm not treating you worse than anyone else. I'm just not eager to call anyone on that anymore.

 

I'm still holding my vote on TW, but I'm not convinced you're scum anymore.

 

[OOC] I know I'm aggressive while playing (and I don't find it bad), but if I'm indeed to oppressive / arrogant / or whatever that's crossing the line and spoiling your fun, guys please tell me now. I can accept critique and change my acting so that we can enjoy our game and not leave it in a sore state. [/OOC]

[Ali bin Turban]

 

 

When someone refuses to see reason or consider other possibilities you aren't left with much other choice than to respond like this. I am making sure that the rest of the town knows that *if* I am lynched and *when* I come up as town that it was you and now Imran who wasted the town's time completely and should be under the microscope.

 

Thing is - that was your answer in your very first post after I voted on you. My vote was on #210, your first post after that was on #228. So what reason or other possibilities/explanations you're talking about?

 

What else would you like me to do then to draw attention to the people who aren't participating? I already cast my vote multiple times for one of them. It's pretty damn difficult to force someone to post who refuses to. And why the hell should they at this point? With you and Imran attacking the way you are they don't need to say anything. They can continue to lurk and watch. If any of them are scum they will want to wait to see if you can get me lynched without having to potentially out themselves. If they are town they will also sit there and watch so that they don't either say something stupid and cast suspicion on themselves or participate in the lynching of another townie and look suspicious tomorrow.

 

First of all noone said it's easy to get someones attention. But when you care, you try different approaches. Its not working on one suspect, choose another one, more "popular" (I'm pretty sure you could get much more support for pushing Rafay into activity). Voting on the very same person when you see it's not working is just lazy (or safe, depending on who you are).

Also, a very basic thing you can do when being accused is not to act irrationally but to try to clear yourself. I'm not attacking you "just because". I'm not trying to lynch you at all costs. I'm trying to determine whether you're town or scum. Just like in your game:

  - I jumped on Shah/Canik at first but bailed out as soon as I've got enough indications that he was town.

  - Then I've jumped on my next target. I would have probably chosen Finster initially, but he was less responsive, so I went after Rhizo which also felt scummy. He snowballed with scum indications so I continue to press him.

 

I'm not dead set on you. Should you start sending town indications, I'd bail out. But you instead have snowballed with scum reads(in my eyes), so what do you expect me to do? Take your word that you're town? We won't find any scum this way.

 

Your actions on day 1 are notable for the town. Having said that: We didn't figure out what we wanted to actually do moving forward. Trying to organize and being organized are not the same thing. We decided on a few things not to do, but that's it. Why should we abandon strategizing just because it's day 2? Once again I'll ask you, why does scum hunting have to preclude continuing to strategize? I don't think you ever actually answered this or if you did I missed it amongst the other crap you posted.

 

I think I've mentioned that among other crap, but you might not be paying attention. Strategizing is necessary and there's always time to do it (oh well just take a look I've managed to do that just between my other posts for instance here: #261 - even though I consider it now obsolete), but after D1 it's supplementary action with main focus being placed on finding scums / confirming towns.

The goal of this game is to find scums/townies and we wont manage to do it without actually trying to search. Can you tell me what did you do in order to archive that goal? Who have you talked to to get idea if they're scum or town?

 

My responses in green.
 

[The Warrior]

I have gone back and read through the entire thread again and have come to a couple conclusions. Since ABT loves interesting turns he'll love this one.

 

First Conclusion:

I do not believe that ABT is scum. Even though his actions are misguided right now I think that it is likely that he is a townie. Given the amount of effort he has put into his current crusade I am betting that he is simply a VT trying to do the right thing overall. I believe that Mandarijn is correct here:

 

rom the limited games I played I've learned that most of these heated arguments are between townies (although there are some exceptions, hint: Rhizo But I doubt he would make this mistake so soon again as he wasn't really suspected yet...). I have also learned that scum will support ideas/thoughts of townies to give themself town credit, so Imran could be doing this to Ali or the other way around, or Rhizo and TW. My guess is there's probably only 1 scum in the 2 lists Ali posted (might be 2)...

 

We should not be focussing on this, as this gives the opportunity to all the others (including me, but iSoc, Rafay and WB in particular) to just lurk around and if even one of them is scum they'll win as they will not participate if they're not pushed and we'll have no information whatsoever.

 

I think that the majority of the arguments between Imran/ABT and Me/Rhizo are nothing more than townies quarreling. Continuing to argue among ourselves is going to severely hurt the town, especially if 3 of us end up being town.

 

Second Conclusion:

The lurkers need to participate. End of story. If they don't we aren't going to win. I definitely agree with this:

I understand the urge to lynch one of the active ones, but scum will kill the actives any way and you'll be able to see the teams, etc. after that. We have good indications on Rhizo, Ali, TW and Imran now. If one of them gets killed (and they will as scum won't win if they keep all the active scum hunters alive, they rather keep the lurkers/inactives alive). Now we need to look/push for everyone else to get information on their alignment.

 

So we really should be pressuring the lurkers/inactives to participate or be replaced. As those 3 will win/lose the game for the town as has been proven in the games I've played and if they can just survive till the end we've lost (scum will never kill them)...

 

Even though I agree with increasing the pressure on the lurkers, I do think that there is one active scum participant among the two groupings which should be looked at first. Which brings me to..

 

Third Conclusion:

Imran is scum. There is a good deal of evidence that suggests this.

 

1. Activity:
   1. From what I've seen Imran is always actively scum hunting when he's town. I'm not doubting that he had some r/l stuff going on that hindered some of his time but that doesn't feel like the whole situation here. His first couple days were mostly spent jumping from person to person, claiming to be pressuring them, but then would ultimately back off and not even having a vote that counted by the end of day 1. By the time Imran returned and started participating more actively on day 2, ABT had already officially voted for me and given Imran something to work with.
2. Imran's vote:
   1. By the time that Imran finally showed up to post his thoughts ABT had gone further on his quest to get others to vote for me by posting several times (posts: #210, #225, and #232). ABT's main arguments were that I supported the breadcrumb idea, my posts seemed suspicious to him, and he didn't think there was any substance other than general truths.
   2. Finally, Imran shows up in post #241. He doesn't make mention of any of the things that ABT suspected me for. His two arguments centered on thinking my play style was sort of similar to other games where I was scum and the night killing of Lyner.
      1. A couple questions regarding my play style: If Imran hasn't ever seen me as a townie how would he know how I act as a townie? Shouldn't the goal of any player be to try and keep their play style relatively similar as scum or townie so as not to give themselves away instantly? You should always be trying to act as a townie.
      2. Regarding Lyner's death: The scum obviously would have known that Lyner was a townie. If at any point the scum got the feeling that Lyner was the cop of course he would have been the first townie to go at night. That strategy probably wouldn't change no matter who was scum. However, the people who would have the most to lose by killing Lyner at night (regardless of whether someone thought he was the cop or not) would be those who he may have called out before dying. In this case: Rafay, Fermion/Canik, ABT, and finally TW and Rhizo. If Lyner turned out to be the cop it would be worth it for the scum to get rid of him but it would leave them extremely short handed the next day if the town correctly lynched one of them. The other option though would be for someone who was not suspected by Lyner to push to kill him at night. Not only would this get rid of an experienced townie it could also be getting rid of the cop if the scum suspected Lyner to be the cop. This would be a really safe kill for the scum because 1) they would be off the radar, 2) they get rid of an experienced townie, 3) Lyner could be the cop, and 4) it casts suspicion on anyone who Lyner had a "run-in" with on day 1. Imran is one of the people that fits this particular mold and what do you know he shows up and one of the first things he does is to immediately float that as a reason to vote for me.
   3. Imran suggested that voting for anyone inactive after day 1 is bad for the town and therefore voting for an inactive makes you a suspect. He then points out that both myself and King Hitler fell into that category. My suspicion of Whitebeard did not waiver. I didn't suddenly vote for him because he was inactive on day 2. I suspected him on day 1 and he did nothing to change that and only made it worse with his nonsense posts and "I don't care if that looks scummy" attitude. I suspected him on day 1 and I suspected him on day 2. Why should I change my vote if he was still my top suspect just because he was a lurker and it isn't day 1 anymore? I agree that removing an active scum would serve more of a purpose for us but he was the only one that was really standing out negatively up to that point.
3. Imran's Habits
   1. First shows up in post #32 and mentions that only the cop should use his night action early on and then vigilante and jailkeeper should not. It was the beginning of a strategy that I think we all generally agree with since the cop's actions are the most beneficial to us in the early going. This post was good and looks like a good townie post but it wasn't adding anything new to the discussion after King Hitler basically made the same suggestion 6 posts before Imran.
   2. The most important piece of information that his first post provided in my opinion was when he voted for Whitebeard.
      1. At first glance it looks like the Whitebeard vote is just a vote against a lurker or inactive on day 1. I'm going to take this action a step further and suggest that it was actually a way for Imran to immediately distance himself from his scum partner, Whitebeard. In my experience it is reasonably common for scum to vote for another scum on day 1 because no one usually takes those votes seriously and there is no actual danger of that person being lynched.
      2. Whitebeard shows up in post #45 and votes for Imran, quotes him, and says that he voted because his BS detector went off (post #45). He could have done this because he didn't know any better or he could have done it because he followed Imran's lead as scum.
      3. Imran responds in post #46 and links the rookies to the OMGUS mafia page.
      4. Whitebeard claims that his vote on Imran was a joke and unvotes for him. Of course it would be a "joke" if they were working together.
      5. Imran unvotes for Whitebeard and switches to iSoc (post #86).
      6. Imran makes a point later to say that Whitebeard's posts are scummy but tries to play them off as just nooby (post #192).
   3. Was quick to disagree with me (post #89) when I dared to suggest that no-lynching on day 1 was a viable option and then he makes the case for lynching citing the fact that we should lynch in this type of game because there is less a chance of hitting a power role and lynching was one of the few ways to obtain information. Scum would generally not want to pass up the opportunity to lynch a townie of course. I then made the argument a couple posts later (post #95) that while it is true that the chances of lynching a power role were lower in this game than a role madness game, at least lynching a power role in a role madness game doesn't cripple the town's efforts like it would in this game for instance since there are a bunch of other power roles to return information. No response to my comment about that was made.
   4. Tries to push harder for a lynch in post #108 and states that there are three good options for a lynch: 1) Vote for lurkers like Rafay/iSoc and pressure them, 2) Use info from past games to pick a lynch candidate, or 3) Push to lynch the noobs/rookies. Guess which option he ruled out? Option 3. Why option 3? Probably because he doesn't want his buddy Whitebeard to be targeted.
   5. Starts commenting on Fermion's posts as being scummy and calls him out for a couple reasons including not wanting to lynch (post #114). Votes for Fermion in post #123. Pushes for a Fermion vote again in post #137. Unvotes for Canik (Fermion) late in the day.
   6. Lyner comments to Rhizo that he should vote no lynch if lynching an inactive Robert doesn't benefit town. Imran comes back and says that there are other options then no lynch and votes for iSoc.
   7. Is away for the first ~2 days of game day 2 and then doesn't show back up to comment until after ABT had built a case against me that Imran figured he could jump on and push. Joining ABT and pushing for me was a reasonably safe play for Imran to make. He didn't have to be the one to start a big push on me that would make him look bad when I turn out to be town. Instead he followed ABT's lead since ABT already had something built against me. Best case scenario for Imran would be that others would join and get me lynched. The town would then be down one active player and any backlash would fall on ABT first before him since he could just claim that he believed ABT had a solid case and was following his lead. That would keep him more out of the lynch spotlight longer and then also net the scum a lynch of ABT as well (another active townie) the day after I got incorrectly lynched.

 

I've been working on this post all day at work but it's time to head home now so I may be adding more when I get the chance.

 

I think that Imran is for sure scum, Whitebeard is likely scum and will be next when Imran turns up scum, and the third is probably one of iSoc/Rafay/CoD.

 

Unvote.

 

Vote Imran.

[Ali bin Turban]

TW, as for cop actions. Getting town read is no waste. Imagine that cop comes out and says he got town read on You and Imran. It would change game a lot. Who knows if that wouldn't be more useful than finding a scum (obviously getting town read of iSoc/Rafay/Whitebeard for example is not that useful).

 

Arranging cop investigation is a waste, no matter how you call it. Scum's using up their action on framer, sure. But our Cop is too. What's more cop's action is more precious to us, because we're expecting him to come out on D3 (so we have just 2 tries).

That means scums will have no need for rolecop (At the same time keeping cop hidden for 4 nights so that scums are out of juice for rolecop is just asking for our cop to get killed).

 

Therefore in the end it's only us who are wasting their action and framer will be more than eager to mess with arranged cop reading. You you call that worst case scenario - I call that realistic one.

 

 

Other than bluffing I can't find a reason why would you ask for that investigation (because I'm 99% sure it would return guilty due to reasons I've mentioned).

Oh and I love your post (haven't read it yet but I love the look of all that points )

[The Warrior]

Thats a pretty strange argument. Lyner clearly pointed out you and Rhizo as the two he suspects most. So if at least one of you were scum and you thought he was the cop you wont want to take the chance that he investigates you at night.

That's an interesting way to put it. I believe Lyner's exact words were:

TW and Rhizo feels a bit scummy right now

That hardly seems like Rhizo and I were the two that he suspected most. That's quite a stretch.

If I was not suspected by Lynr why would I want him killed. You may say ABT may want him killed (but at the end of the day he did not put ABT in his shortlist for scum) but you are stretching wayy too far to include me in there as well. Pretty mind boggling argument.

There was no "short list for scum". Lyner didn't come out and say "I think X,Y, and Z are scum". He made comments throughout the day about several people. Rhizo, myself, and ABT happened to be three of them mentioned. ABT probably had the "worst" run-in with him of everyone mentioned. I'm pretty sure that Lyner saying "I'll remember your actions in future days" to ABT is a lot harsher than "TW and Rhizo feels a bit scummy right now."

There are several reasons why you could have wanted Lyner killed. If you believed him to be the cop then he would be your obvious target. It doesn't matter whether he said he suspected you or not. Killing the most powerful town power role would have been the best scum option if you thought you had him figured out. Not only is the town's only "real" information source gone but you would have managed to do it without any suspicion landing on you since you didn't have any disagreement with him. Lyner is also one experienced player that would be out of the way. It was a safe kill for you to make.

[Canik]

Amazed the internet is still standing after all these walls of text. xD

I've gtg for a bit but I'll be back in an hour or so to post my thoughts.

[Rhizoctonia]

Rhizo, getting back to Canik and TW.

 

1. TW got my attention earlier (here's the trace, last sentence: http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-7#entry857642).

I'm always suspicious about posts like that one: http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-7#entry857927 , since I find it spammy due to it containing just rehashed common knowledge (posting summaries is one of the scum's indication).

But I take it was obfuscated and very hard to notice.

 

2. Then it comes http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-10#entry858999 . This is another scum's indication for me. Canik gets benefit of a doubt, TW does not. His answer is evasive and that's yet another scum's indication for me. Still that's not the point I've voted on him. At that moment I was prodding Lyner and my vote was on him and not on TW.

 

3. New day. Lyner turns out to be dead. Canik keeps discussing breadcrumbs topic. He tries to explain himself and show his reasoning and that's not scummy action. TW is most suspicious so I'm placing my vote on him to start pressuring him (http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-11). You'll find there "no-substance-posts" argument there, so that's nothing new.

 

What I realize now is that indeed your perception might have been that I've been basing only on breadcrumbing. Stating that you've lied is therefore farfetched and may be incorrect.

However: 

  - If I were scum and Canik was town it would be stupid of me to try and lynch TW. I would join you in accusing him, or what's better I'd keep my vote on Fermion.

  - If I were scum and Canik was scum it would also be stupid of me to try and lynch TW using something my scum buddy is doing as a reason.

  - If I were scum targeting TW in general would be extremely stupid of me. There are so many other targets, that can't even fight back. For instance voting on Whitebeard along with TW. Voting on iSoc or Rafay. Why would I risk?

 

4. TW could have chosen to be calm and rational. He's instead chosen non-rational arguments (including "I'm a town" "argument" - was there any game where scum said he's not town but a scum? It's not verifiable so it bears no value) and that was another indication for me. He also asked to be investigated in a framer's game, which was a big scum indication.

 

As for a Framer, I don't read KevinH posts at all (except at the end of the Day), just scrolling through, so I've missed his explanation. Even though that creates different outcomes it's still irrational to ask for investigation. There's to much risk of framer spoiling the result (why shouldn't he?). What would we do after getting "guilty" result (which we would almost certainly get)?

 

Rest of your arguments is just showing some random people doing random things. I'm not sure why don't you realize that single action does not matter on its own. Mandarjin's posting general posts? Great (it also shows that tiny detail - Mandarjin is not trying to suggest to anyone that he's town). Now show me some other proofs. Why don't you start talking with him, ask him some questions and see if he gives you answers or tries to evade. That's what this game is about.

 

We'll I do realize why you writing all/some of this. This piece clearly shows you've grudge against me and treat it personally.

 

I hate when people get really cheap and bring RL as an excuse: "I don't have time to play", "I don't care about this game anymore" ... yet they lurk on. That's the lowest scum can fall in order to save his hide

 

 

This I completely disagreed with, and think it's a bit low of you.  I for one know this...i for one dealt with this in two mafia games, and times will in this one.  I was forced to take time away I had with my wife (which at times is little) because I was being suspected in both games, and had I not taken the time I would of been lynched for sure. I
was a SK and a scum, but neither my roles were any reason for not posting or strategy, it was real life getting in the way.  So I have sympathy for people who have this happen to them.  Normally I'd let it go, but yet Imran was one to call me out for it in past games and made me take time away to do so, you were one of them, so I'm not so quickly to give something that was not given to me, understanding.  But yet...you make this remark and Imran has been inactive and not posting up til today, yet you didn't call him out or suspect him like you did with me and others in other games.  COD has had the same thing in this game, you haven't called him out either.  Why not?  Is somehow they different then me?  Is somehow their real life more important then mine was in the past?  Why you so understanding with them and not me?

I think it was not just a bit but very low of me. That's why I've apologized for this 5 posts later (just in here: http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-8#entry858347). I'm sorry you're still holding it. I'm not treating you worse than anyone else. I'm just not eager to call anyone on that anymore.

 

I'm still holding my vote on TW, but I'm not convinced you're scum anymore.

 

[OOC] I know I'm aggressive while playing (and I don't find it bad), but if I'm indeed to oppressive / arrogant / or whatever that's crossing the line and spoiling your fun, guys please tell me now. I can accept critique and change my acting so that we can enjoy our game and not leave it in a sore state. [/OOC]

 

 

I appreciate this response and addressing some of what I've said.  See this type of post is more I can be appreciative of, because it doesn't come off with seemingly a wrong attitude..it's not in your face it's laying out your facts with a nice sensible fashion...now when it's more direct and very "aggressive" as you may want to call it, not only does it come off that way, but it makes especially someone like myself I'll admit, come back at you with the same sense.  Instead of actually trying to have a sensible debate arguing points, it then becomes more like two people yelling in real life where neither is taking in what the other is saying nor listening to them, whatever they say doesn't matter.

 

1.  Now I do appreciate you pointing out prior to the "merit" comment of TW that you at least slightly hinted at something that made you suspicious.  That being said, I don't find what TW said to be very scummish in my eyes, he pointed out the exact feeling I had about whitebeard and his hostile first encounter.  Whitebeard was 1 of the 2 I wanted to see lynch on Day 1, especially over Robert.   He listed his thoughts on people up to that point which is fine, many people do.  Your other part of his summary...to you that might be scummish and maybe it's something I overlook, but I see similar posts like this all the time and it hasn't been just scum.

 

2.  This is where for me it starts getting suspicous of you.  I get you being suspicious of TW or liking the idea, but that alone is not enough, or I would have already been calling for Imran's head then.  I instead made a note that Imran continued to agree with it but it wasn't enough, I'd watch his future actions.  I would of done the same for TW, had I seen it, but wouldn't instantly make me think he's scum.  The problem here is this is when you really turned onto going after TW, and where before you pointing out you made a slight indication you suspected him earlier (not a huge indication), it seemed like that was enough to go full suspicious mode on him.  Which I find weird, because I can agree giving Canik the benefit of the doubt since he just joined (though again he read through the part at least where it was mentioned and read enough that his first post he started naming who he thought was town so I find it a bit hard he missed all the discussion afterwards), but after Canik continued to push Day 2, having more time to read over it, and me already stating that it's already been discussed you still didn't even go after him at all.  This, and you not going after Imran for agreeing with the idea either.

 

3.  Your suspcious of TW.  Fine, I get that, not everyone get's the same suspicion as everyone...I've yet to see anything of TW's that would make me besides him agreeing with the breadcrumb idea which it seemed Canik/Imran/TW agreed it was good to use.  But your pressure on him is exactly what I hate.

 

I also find his posts suspicious in general. If you dig into them in order to get any substance there's not much to be found. Just some general truths and summaries.

 

 

I hate posts like these, so much.  Look my posts are long and winded and I get that...you don't know how long I spend on them when I write them because I try to be as detailed as possible, and I'm bad with getting my thoughts down rather concise.  But I despise when people use "His posts seem suspicious to me."  That is the most hollow and cheap excuse to use.  If you're going to call out someone's posts as suspicious...don't tell me that and then don't actually cite examples and why.  It's so easy for anyone to say that with no basis of it.  I've seen people use it all the time.  Case in point, Imran just doing the same with KH.  One of his reasons to suspect him, "I find some of his posts scummy,"  something along those lines, I've already pointed it out in another reply from yesterday.  If you want to throw that out there, then point it out..otherwise I think it's a load of crap.  So you using that as a reason to suspect him off the bat without citing anything to me is a baseless accusation and it holds 0 merit to me.

 

 

 

- If I were scum and Canik was town it would be stupid of me to try and lynch TW. I would join you in accusing him, or what's better I'd keep my vote on Fermion.

  - If I were scum and Canik was scum it would also be stupid of me to try and lynch TW using something my scum buddy is doing as a reason.

  - If I were scum targeting TW in general would be extremely stupid of me. There are so many other targets, that can't even fight back. For instance voting on Whitebeard along with TW. Voting on iSoc or Rafay. Why would I risk?

 

 

1.  I find the idea you were scum and he was town as unlikely in my eyes at this point.  I don't really see this scenario.  But anyway, I'm confused with this, as the first sentence seems to be talking about now, the second seems to be talking about your vote night 1 since you mention keeping your vote on Fermion.  Now if we're talking about night 1, it would make sense for you to take your vote off Fermion if you were scum in case he was lynched...as you would be part of lynching a town in this scenerio, where instead, you took it off him and voted Lyner who wasn't in danger of getting lynched, and you didn't put it on Robert who was lynched and also was town.  Now in regards to now, one could say you would go after Tw today instead of Canik...because Canik already has me pressuring him, there's no need to jump right on to Canik when you can look to try to get another active town lynch, then later go back to Canik since I atleast already had suspicion of him.

 

2.  Yes, they're both doing the same thing, if you're talking about breadcrumb.  The only difference is, you've said multiple occasions it's not due to his breadcrumb idea, so technically you aren't lynching him over the same thing Canik is doing. That, and you gave him the benefit of the doubt Day 1 and tried to make an excuse for him, and now on Day 2, you've already tried to help Canik out by still not suspecting him and saying he's at least trying to explain himself.  You have in fact done your best to keep giving Canik excuses for continuing to bring up the idea, which I could easily see as trying to help him out.  You haven't gone after Canik.

 

3.  Now see comments like this make me suspicious of you.  I know you're an intelligent person and you can answer why what you're saying doesn't make sense.  But to explain some, a very good reason would be to take out an active town over the 3 you mentioned.  Rafay/Isocialism/Whitebeard aren't a threat to you, they hardly post or do anything.  Like Mandarijn said, scum can't sit here and continue to try to pick off the inactive town and leave the active ones...that would be a bad move.  So first and foremost, it helps scum to take out the active town, so trying to take TW out makes sense.  Also, because Lyner being killed at night and him last calling out me and TW you can try to use.  In fact, it's been suggested that could be a reason for us to kill Lyner as some type of evidence to have us lynched, and tbh, I see Lyner's lynch exactly as that...trying to setup one of us.  Now I came out pretty townish come day 2 because I was adamant about not lynching an inactive that ended up town...so that leaves TW to go after, or at least the easiest of the 2.

 

I

think it was not just a bit but very low of me. That's why I've apologized for this 5 posts later (just in here: http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-8#entry858347). I'm sorry you're still holding it. I'm not treating you worse than anyone else. I'm just not eager to call anyone on that anymore.

 

I'm still holding my vote on TW, but I'm not convinced you're scum anymore.

 

[OOC] I know I'm aggressive while playing (and I don't find it bad), but if I'm indeed to oppressive / arrogant / or whatever that's crossing the line and spoiling your fun, guys please tell me now. I can accept critique and change my acting so that we can enjoy our game and not leave it in a sore state. [/OOC]

 

 

I saw you apologized for it and I'm not still holding it against you.  I made my point, you apologized for it.  I didn't think you were a bad person for saying it, I know what you're trying to get at, and that's having a game with active players, especially in this game.  I get that, I want the same.  I just had more understanding/sympathy of people in those scenarios because it's happened to me in some of the other games at times, and it's not fair to call out people for real life reasons, as they happen.  There's a difference of being completely inactive every day, and someone who maybe cant spend the time to scum hunt or be as involved each and every day.  Hell the past few nights I've been staying up a lot later then I really should and paying for it getting 4-5 hours of sleep before work, but I'm trying to at least contribute because it's my only time, and I have a read on people that I want to get across.  And I spend 1-2 hours writing up most of my responses.  That and if you miss a day or two, you're way behind in catching up.

 

So i appreciate you at least acknowledging that, and not trying to call people out for it.  I'm just pointing out before, you called people out for that, including me, so when you don't now with people who use that I start to wonder, but you've at least explained why you haven't this game.

 

In regards to your playing style, we need individuals like you.  Can't have people who just sit back or the game is boring and if all town do that, they're doomed.  I have no problem you calling people out, suspecting people, etc.  What I had a problem with is I feel you've been a bit unfair with TW and similar experiences with me.  It's not you calling me or someone out I have a problem with, it's the feeling you're not looking to actually listen at times to what they have to say.  You seem set in your suspicion at times (which I don't think there's been enough from TW to be) and instead of actually taking in what they're saying, it seems like you're only looking at what can you find that turns them into scum.  Not giving the benefit of the doubt, already made your mind up they're scum, so it doesn't matter what they say.  It then starts to get "Aggressive" for lack of a better word and it turns into getting hostile and not beneficial.  Neither side is actually listening to what the other is saying, as I mentioned already, it turns into a typing "yelling match," where it gets us no where.  And at times, at least for me, it comes off arrogant.  The same goes for Imran.  You both are great mafia players, but at times remarks/actions come off egotistical more then anything, and I'm the type of person who is exact opposite, so it rubs the wrong way.

 

You can say some of my remarks maybe "emotional."  That I wouldn't even argue with, but it doesn't change the evidence I'm trying to present.  And my emotion is not due to being lynched..i really don't care, as both times there was legitimate reason/suspicion to have me lynched.  I don't get mad over being lynched for good reason, and I was a SK/Scum in the two games I played, so can't be mad at town playing smart.  My emotion is over the nature I take you and Imran's posts specifically at times that I find "pompous" in the way I read it, and it's not something I will sit and keep quiet over.  It's not all the times, it's just certain times.  And tbh, it's why I spoke up this round with your attacks of TW.  I still feel you looked to find whatever you could to turn TW's words into something resembling scummish rather then actually take anything in.  Through both of your guys back and forth, the only thing I've seen that makes me feel TW could possibly be scummish is his cop investigation idea...besides that most of your "evidence" against him are things I feel I can point out for many people.  Which to me, then it's either a scum working hard to get someone lynched and looking to find anything to lynch him, or it's a townie who I think has made up their mind already and aren't looking to actually care what the person they're suspecting says besides to just find a way to use it against them.  That's fine if you have made up your mind, if your set you're set, I am with Imran, but it's to the point to me you're looking too hard to find anything to use against him that now I'm suspecting you more and more.

 

Rest of your arguments is just showing some random people doing random things. I'm not sure why don't you realize that single action does not matter on its own. Mandarjin's posting general posts? Great (it also shows that tiny detail - Mandarjin is not trying to suggest to anyone that he's town). Now show me some other proofs. Why don't you start talking with him, ask him some questions and see if he gives you answers or tries to evade. That's what this game is about.

 

Might get to this tomorrow in a reply, along with getting into Imran's reply, but I need sleep and don't have time to dive into anything more.

At this point, I believe Imran is the one that needs to go today.  I feel better about that then ABT, and will look to explain why later on why that is.  That being said, I still think it's likely the two of them are together, but Imran is the better option today at least.  

 

Good night

[Chaplain of death]

And for fuck sakes another wall. You arent trump and this isn't the US Mexico border so stop trying to build useless walls.

[Imran Ehsan]

I am positive TW is scum. If I get lynched, the Vig should think about taking him out at night. If he survives, ignore Rhizo's walls of ramblings (I just skip over them now) and lynch TW. Make sure to remember this when I get lynched and turn up town.

 

I will reply to TWs accusations when I get some time later.