459 replies to this topic

[Imran Ehsan]

Well I managed to skim through most of it. I need to go back and look at some of the more suspicious posts again but that can be done later.

 

My thoughts,

 

i. Lyner was targetted because he was keeping a low profile. Scum thought he may be cop. Agreed on this part with ABT. 

ii. Lyner also was suspicious of TW and Rhizo. So its also possible one (or both) TW or Rhizo is scum and with Lyner acting like a cop (see point i) scum new there is a very big chance they will get investigated and hence caught as scum. So they could not take that chance and had to take out Lyner. If this is true one (or both) of TW and Rhizo is scum.

iii. I agree with some of the others who are saying that TW is playing pretty similarly when he was scum in his previous games while Rhizo is playing a bit differently (a bit more pro town). But both these guys has by now plenty of opportunity to know what to expect when they are scum so it is possible they have fine tuned their strategies to look "more town". This is specially true for Rhizo who was lynched as scum in his last 2 games while TW was never caught in one of his games.

iv. Personally I am getting town vibes from Rhizo, mainly because he pointed out the flaw in the breadcrumbs theory on D1. So either he has really fine tuned his strategy to look town this time around or he is town for once.

 

Conclusion: TW is number 1 suspect

 

Now, Lets look at the lynch wagon.

 

Robert2424 (4): Mandarijn, Rafay, Chaplain of Death, King Hitler,

 

I thought the Robert lynch was pretty bad, We should not be lynching complete inactives. Lurkers are better choices for D1 and there are plenty of them in this game: iSoc, Rafay and Whitebeard. But still ppl went off to lynch the completely inactive Robert which I found disturbing. The hammer vote was given by King Hitler. I have found some of his posts a but scummy as well.

 

Conclusion: KH is number 2 suspect

 

In Day 2 we really should not be going for lynching another inactive person. These are safe lynches for scum. Anyone pushing to do this on D2 is scummy in my eyes. Whitebeard appears to be a crappier version of Rafay. So while lynching him or Rafay probably wont hurt the town much, it will also not give much info to the tow for scum hunting. People voting for  low profile players are suspects

 

TW and KH both fall in this category.

 

Third scum may be one of the lurkers iSoc or Rafay. I doubt WhiteBeard is scum. A scum wont be posting complete nonsense now and then to draw attention to himself They would try to keep a very low profile like iSocialism.

 

Vote: The Warrior

 

At the moment, I am getting the most town vibes from ABT and I also agree with most of his points, so I will follow him with the TW vote (in addition to my suspicion of him)

[The Warrior]

ii. Lyner also was suspicious of TW and Rhizo. So its also possible one (or both) TW or Rhizo is scum and with Lyner acting like a cop (see point i) scum new there is a very big chance they will get investigated and hence caught as scum. So they could not take that chance and had to take out Lyner. If this is true one (or both) of TW and Rhizo is scum.

 

Lyner mentioned very late on day 1 (~13 hours before deadline) that he was suspicious of me. If I was scum, killing him at night would be the stupidest thing I could have done. What would be gained by me killing Lyner exactly? With only one person saying I felt scummy up to that point I wasn't in any danger of being lynched. The only thing killing Lyner would do would be to immediately make me a suspect. If I was scum I would have been better served to get rid of someone like ABT or you (knowing your play style even though you weren't doing much yet).

 

And again I'm not afraid of the cop investigating me. If he wants to clear my name, I welcome it. The odds are that he would have found another townie anyway. He may as well clear my name in the process to help us avoid a mislynch so that we aren't at even more of a disadvantage.

 

If I am investigated, one of the following will happen:

1) He confirms that I am a townie and shows that those pushing for me are either misguided or scum. Either way it gives us more to work off of moving forward.

2) The mafia chooses to have their framer use one of their night actions to frame me which is one less action their role cop can use to find our cop.

 

The only downside to the cop investigating me tonight is that it would be a waste of one of his actions that could be used to actually find scum.

 

Since Lyner's suspicions were called into question let's analyze them:

-Votes for Rafay (post #30) because of his lurking habits.

-Votes no lynch (post #84) because he doesn't want to lynch the cop.

-Votes for Fermion (post #141) to follow Imran's lead.

-ABT votes for Lyner (post #152) calling into question his actions. This sets off a series of exchanges between the two.

-Lyner says that he won't forget about ABT pushing for him in later days (post #164).

-Votes no lynch but mentions Rafay's activity and notes that he has gone inactive again after he's out of the spotlight and says TW and Rhizo feel a bit scummy (post #188).

 

So there could be several reasons why Lyner was targeted at night:

1) Rafay is scum and figured that Lyner would eventually end up voting to lynch him at a later time.

2) Canik (Fermion) is scum and didn't like being called out by Lyner. This option is highly unlikely since Lyner claimed that he was just following Imran's lead and ended up unvoting for him. It's doubtful that Canik would have held this grudge.

3) ABT is scum and thought Lyner could be the cop or killed him because of Lyner's comment about not forgetting about ABT's attempt to lynch him in the later days.

4) TW or Rhizo is scum and killed Lyner because of his comment about us feeling scummy. As mentioned above, this scenario would have been completely foolish to go through with. A passing comment about either of us feeling scummy would have been a bad reason to kill him, especially when the comment was still going to be fresh in everyone's mind since it was made only ~13 hours before deadline.

5) Someone else thought that Lyner was the cop and pushed the scum to target him. 

6) Lyner was targeted because he is an experienced player. This reason is also unlikely because other experienced players were far more active up to that point.

 

If Lyner was targeted by someone that had a negative interaction with him on day 1 it is far more likely that it was someone that actually believed Lyner had a reason to pressure them at a later time. If that was the case that would leave Rafay or ABT. Based off of Rafay's habits I think that he is the better candidate there but the exchange between Lyner and ABT keeps ABT on that list as well in my opinion.

 

 

People voting for low profile players are suspects TW and KH both fall in this category.

 

Third scum may be one of the lurkers iSoc or Rafay. I doubt WhiteBeard is scum. A scum wont be posting complete nonsense now and then to draw attention to himself They would try to keep a very low profile like iSocialism.

 

You say that people voting for low profile players are suspects but then go on to say that one of the scum could be a lurker like iSoc or Rafay. Isn't lurking a way to keep a low profile? If you think that one of the lurkers can be scum then making a blanket statement that "voting for low profile players makes you a suspect" doesn't make sense.

 

This is whitebeard's first game. We have no idea what his play style looks like. A "seasoned" scum wouldn't post complete nonsense and draw attention to himself, a new player might. My standing vote for Whitebeard is based off of his existing posts because they are still the most suspicious.

[Ali bin Turban]

 

And again I'm not afraid of the cop investigating me. If he wants to clear my name, I welcome it. The odds are that he would have found another townie anyway. He may as well clear my name in the process to help us avoid a mislynch so that we aren't at even more of a disadvantage.

 

If I am investigated, one of the following will happen:

1) He confirms that I am a townie and shows that those pushing for me are either misguided or scum. Either way it gives us more to work off of moving forward.

2) The mafia chooses to have their framer use one of their night actions to frame me which is one less action their role cop can use to find our cop.

 

The only downside to the cop investigating me tonight is that it would be a waste of one of his actions that could be used to actually find scum.

I'll cut my responses not to make wall of text. What you propose is extremely bad idea. As a matter of fact you're literally asking cop to waste his action.

What is investigation worth with the knowledge that framer can alter its results if he pleases so? If you get scum result, you'll argue you got framed. If you get town result I won't believe (and probably not only me) it because of the blatant setup that is possible here.

 

To be honest I'm pretty sure all scums would love to spend 3 of their actions to get confirmed as town. Why to be in a hurry of finding cop when you got shielded from him?

 

You get another scumpoint in my eyes for this idea.

 

Also what's up with that constant repeating that you're town and we should not waste our time on you? What kind of argument is that? Or maybe you are asking us to trust you?

[Imran Ehsan]

Lyner mentioned very late on day 1 (~13 hours before deadline) that he was suspicious of me. If I was scum, killing him at night would be the stupidest thing I could have done. What would be gained by me killing Lyner exactly? With only one person saying I felt scummy up to that point I wasn't in any danger of being lynched. The only thing killing Lyner would do would be to immediately make me a suspect. If I was scum I would have been better served to get rid of someone like ABT or you (knowing your play style even though you weren't doing much yet).

 

You ignored the scenario I posted. If you were scum and you thought Lyner was the cop (because of his keeping a low profile) and him posting clearly that you and Rhizo look suspicious to him, you would think there is a high probability of Cop Lyner to investigate you at night. So, even though you knew killing him will put you on the spotlight on the next day it is still better than the cop investigating you and confirming 100% you are scum. In this scenario, taking out the cop is a lot more beneficial to the town instead of other active players who are scum hunting. Me and ABT had pretty much indicated on Day 1 that we are VTs..i think someone else did too but I cant remember now...so we were not at the top the scum hit list.

You say that people voting for low profile players are suspects but then go on to say that one of the scum could be a lurker like iSoc or Rafay. Isn't lurking a way to keep a low profile? If you think that one of the lurkers can be scum then making a blanket statement that "voting for low profile players makes you a suspect" doesn't make sense.

 

I said voting to lynch another lurker/inactive on D2 is not a good idea. We should try to get a lynch which gives us more info to scum hunt on D3. Whitebeard is a very safe lynch. If he turns up town you can say.."oh well..he was posting so scummily, you cant blame us for lynching him". He may very well be scum as the other lurkers iSoc or Rafay, but he should not be the lynch target on D2 is my point. We try to take out the active scums first and theres a couple of them at least I think.

[Rhizoctonia]

O the two scum have come out to play. I will be going into detail of the contradictions later when I'm at a computer. For now

Unvote

[Ali bin Turban]

Responding further to TW. I see you're defending your argument that:

 

"By all means ABT, go ahead and continue your quest to have me lynched. I'm sure that the mafia will appreciate you wasting your time and everyone else's. The rest of the town on the other hand will not appreciate it."

 

I don't see why a town would use this argument (desperate one, sure - desperate ones tend to make desperate moves). It has no discussion value, it's just an emotional attack. Town that's wrongly accused will try to explain his motives and reasoning because it's natural for him. He's not afraid because he's done nothing wrong - after all he's a town. Scum does not have that comfort (obviously he can't explain his motives) so he's prone to respond emotionally.

 

Just imagine everyone how easy it is for you to explain yourself when you know you're not guilty...and how hard it becomes when you can't force yourself to admit mistake.

 

Secondly, I don't see you pressing people to post. Posting "People need to post more" or stating obvious facts "iSocialism is lurking, he could be a scum" is no pressure. That's just repeating what everyone thinks. What did you do about Lyner apart from writing "Lyner needs to post more" i one of your many summaries? Did it make Lyner post more? Or maybe it was me who prodded him and forced into more active stance? 

You're forced to be active, because everyone would notice your lurking instantly (it would be extremely odd for a generally active person to lurk) so you're active in a way that gives town little benefits.

 

Thirdly your theories about me are extremely weak.

 

1. During D1 I spend a lot of time on theory-craft and after 20 days when I make a statement on D2 that we finally need to start focusing on people instead of theories that's a proof I'm in your eyes trying to disorganize town? Why would I spend a lot of time before on trying to organize town then? Care to explain that?

Also that "wild-ass-guessing", as you call scum hunting, is the very essence of mafia and we will not get away from it, because cop won't be able to find every scum for us. It surely hasn't stopped you from reassuring everyone that you're ready to jump on robert's bandwagon should there be less votes than required to lynch him.

 

2. Your other theory:

 

ABT is scum and thought Lyner could be the cop or killed him because of Lyner's comment about not forgetting about ABT's attempt to lynch him in the later days.

 

Are you're suggesting that I've started to poke Lyner at the end of the day just to kill him at night? Or maybe you're suggesting that I've got scared by his remark so much that I've killed him? Also isn't that contradicting with your other statement that was supposed to prove you're town because of your "activity"??

 

When you're scum, you don't care about pressing the inactives or drawing attention to them. It's better for you to let them sit there and idle because it's fewer people that can hunt for you.

 

Finally, you've been on Fermion's bandwagon (to be clear, I was 3rd), jumped as a 4th one  - quite a safe number, to stay away from the heat should he turn out not to be a town (coupled with that you were not pressing him). You're also constantly reminding us about Whitebeard. This is not much on it's own, but I'm mentioning that to show that If you turn out to be scum, those two are most likely to be confirmed townies (Canik for sure, Whitebeard less so).

[Chaplain of death]

Theres another reason that Lyner could have been targetted. One scum tactic is to kill the obvious person and then claim that you are being setup because nobody in their right mind would make them self look so suspicious. I've done it before. The fact that you dropped that line just makes is sound scummier to me, though it could indeed be a setup, I tend to agree with ABT and Imran analysis of your recent posts and play style (i.e. you asking the cop to investigate you when it literally wastes the cop's action because scum have a framer.)

 

vote TW

[KevinH]

Vote Count:

The Warrior (3): Ali bin Turban, Imran Ehsan, Chaplain of Death,
iSocialism (2): Whitebeard, Canik,
Rafay (1): King Hitler,
Whitebeard (1): The Warrior,
King Hitler (1): Rafay,
Rhizoctonia (0):
Canik (0):
Chaplain of Death (0):
Imran Ehsan (0):
Ali bin Turban (0)
Mandarijn (0)

No lynch (0):

Not voting: iSocialism, Mandarijn, Rhizoctonia,

 

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch or 3 at deadline.
Deadline is 13:00 EDT Sunday, June 12.

Please note that Mafia Framer can only force a "guilty" result on a townie, not an "innocent" result on a mafia (which is the Tailor or Lawyer role).
 

[Rhizoctonia]

Welp this can be a quick game if town was smart, 2 scum have revealed themselves.

 

Let's start with #1

 

ABT

 

I asked ABT why he suspected TW because he said Canik's idea had merit, but yet still hasn't suspected Canik, this even after Canik continues to push for it come D2.  You didn't answer it, you mostly beat around the bush and then repeat what you already said, which I even indicated.  You said one of the reasons was Canik was new to it, that he maybe not had enough time to read everything.  For this, I can agree with a bit and it's a legitimate reason, though I still think he likely did, he read enough to know about the whole idea...me calling out the holes of it was only a few posts past it.  But that goes out the window when it's D2, he's had time, and Canik still is the one trying to push it.  You haven't called him out, you haven't suspected him, you if anything have been passive with him.  Now you can say your vote isn't merely on something agreeing with the breadcrumb idea, but in fact, that's the very reason and only reason you suddenly suspected TW.  You only suspected him because he said Canik's idea (not even TW's idea) had merit.  Yet, Canik keep pushing and that doesn't seem suspicious to you.  If it is for 1 person, it should be for another.  Everything else you've done is try beyond hard to look at ways of making TW's responses look scummy.  

 

Scum Hunting - You're not scum hunting, you're not trying to get people active, all you're doing is trying incredibly hard to find a way to make anything TW says as scummish.  You've taken it beyond too far, you literally take apart everything and try to make it scummish.  All you've done is spent this whole day trying to make it all about TW, so worse case secnerio the whole day is you too arguing and TW is left as the only option.  This was the exact thing that happened to me when I was a SK, it was all about me and at the end of the day, it was the only option to go off of.  That's all you're doing...just trying to make this all about TW.  You're not looking to find scum, your fixated on one person.

 

You call out TW for saying for a cop to invesitagte him.  You're already looking for a way to setup him as scum no matter what.  Again, you are pushing a lynch on TW beyond hard.

 

've come before forum failure, but Rhizo's wall of text has broken my morale and forced me to retreat   (not that I'm much better with posting a lot). There's a lesson to learn from recent events for everyone. Never make a replacement at the end of the day on a guy that risks getting lynched. We'd be much better of lynching Fermion and getting Canik to replace Robert. But that's past no

 

 

Really?  That I find funny because where was your vote on Fermion/Canik at the end?  O that's right, it was no where to be seen.  If you thought it was such a better idea to  lynch Fermion over Robert...why did you switch it off him, or vote with me before deadline for Fermion?  O and don't say you took it off Fermion because Canik took over and he was active...you took your vote off him before he was even replaced.  At the end of the day, your vote was on Lyner...a wasted vote, as no one besides you suspected him, and you now say Fermion would of been better, but you failed to change.  No, instead you hid from the lynch vote because you knew Robert was town and didn't want to be involved in a lynching of a town.

 

You and Imran want to agree with the reason why Lyner got lynched.  I find it to be a bunch of crap.  The reason he likely got lynched was to look to push suspicion on me or TW.  Now, you'd have a hard time pushing it on me, as I was adamant against lynching Robert who was found to be town from early on.  So who does that leave, TW, and looky there, here is Imran/ABT looking to use Lyner as a reason to push a lynch on TW...because your fairy tale reason Lyner got hit.  No, I completely disagree, I played as scum in another, and I know many wanted to get the likes of ABT/Imran/Mand out quickly for their experience and activity...and yet that didn't happen.  I find it more suspicious you two especially weren't lynched...instead of someone who wasn't all the active.  

 

inally, you've been on Fermion's bandwagon (to be clear, I was 3rd), jumped as a 4th one  - quite a safe number, to stay away from the heat should he turn out not to be a town (coupled with that you were not pressing him)

 

 

Lol?  Another failed attempt.  Is no way being 4th on Fermion bandwagon is not even close to being safer.  In actuality, Imran is now using KH jumping on 4th on Robert as a reason to suspect him.  Jumping on 3rd is a lot safer then being the last one, the needed 4th vote.  

 

Also what's up with that constant repeating that you're town and we should not waste our time on you? What kind of argument is that? Or maybe you are asking us to trust you?

 

I don't know, imagine the fact you're wasting time trying to push a lynch on him instead of an actual scum...maybe because you're scum.  You're the one keep saying he's not town and trying to change everything he says around...of course he has to try to plead he's town because you keep suggesting different.

 

Nothing factual to back this up of course, but I get town vibes from Imran (and AbT/TW too)

 

 

Imagine that, 2 of the people I suspect are people came out instantly as town.  This was the very reason I wanted to lynch Canik, because this would give me a good idea if Canik was trying to just give him scum buddies some Town cred, while throwing a townie in the mix as well.  See if Canik was lynched and found to be town, they probably would get some heat off them...yet neither pushed for it, and we went Robert who told us nothing.

 

 

Now onto person #2

 

Imran

 

Imran is the individual who posts more then anyone when he's town.  Yet this game, he suddenly has gone inactive yet pops back up when there is a needed push on TW.  Now, we all have real life, I know this, but yet two other games where real life was the culprit for me not posting I wasn't given the benefit of the doubt.  In fact, ABT pushed hard for me for that very reason because there was no issue with lynching me, I wasn't scum hunting or anything.  In fact, I even made a post during the day that my real life was busy, just like Imran did, yet wasn't given the benefit of the doubt.  I was forced to be active in those games because If I didn't I was for sure dead and I gave up little time I had with my wife for it.  Even this very game, ABT called out how he hates when people try to use the "real life" excuse for not posting, for which I called him out for.  But yet, Imran has sat here not posting, and ABT hasn't gone after him like he did me in other games.  If I'm not gonna get the benefit of the doubt in other games, do you think I am going to give someone who wouldn't for me?  No, Imran has been on these boards, he found the time to make a thread about Game of Thrones through this all, and hasn't posted anything but now suddenly pops out when ABT needs momentum to kill TW.  Yea, awful convenient.  

 

Now let's dig into Imran.  Imran is the one who always pushes a lynch D1, yet was no where to be found on D1 for who got lynched, he in fact voted off someone who didn't stand a chance to get lynched instead of jumping on Robert.  He in fact, took his vote off Fermion just so he wouldn't maybe get a late lynch on him.  His reasoning, it's better to lynch a totally inactive one then an active one.  So if you felt it was better to lynch an inactive one, why didn't you vote Robert?  Why did you make sure to take your vote of Fermion/Canik?  O, because you didn't want to be associated with the lynch of a townie, and now look to turn that around on KH because he was the deciding vote.  Now we're day 2, now Imran is all against voting a lurker or an inactive person, and instead wants to go after an active player.  His reasoning to not vote Canik Day 1 was because he rather an inactive over and active, now Day 2 comes, and it's the exact opposite.  You had the opportunity to not vote an inactive on Day 1, you had the opportunity to vote someone who would give us something as well as likely help clear your name, but no you didn't...voting an inactive one in your book is better then voting an active one...yet now it's not.

 

 said voting to lynch another lurker/inactive on D2 is not a good idea. We should try to get a lynch which gives us more info to scum hunt on D3.

 

 

Why not do the same Day 1?  Why not use the lynch to gain information.  What does lynching an inactive or a lurker give us for day 2?  I pointed out several benefits of lynching Canik and information we could gain, you ignored it and voted a lurker who would of gave us the same information we got from Robert.  

 

We try to take out the active scums first and theres a couple of them at least I think.

 

 

Of course scum would want the active ones out first, what are they left with...whitebeard who rarely posts, Rafay and Isocialism who are quiet...yea easy win

 

I have found some of his posts a but scummy as well.

 

 

So elaborative on what posts of KH made him scummy.  KH has looked more townie then most, I find this funny.  

 

Me and ABT had pretty much indicated on Day 1 that we are VTs..i think someone else did too but I cant remember now...so we were not at the top the scum hit list.

 

 

This just takes the cake though.  If anyone thinks Imran is town after this, then we are doomed to lose.

 

1.  I don't remember anyone giving off that vibe

2.  Why in the hell would a VT do that, that would literally be the stupidest move and only helps scum

3.  This is obvious attempt to explain why Imran/ABT are getting lynched at night.

 

I didn't see anyone suggest such, and if in fact you did that as a VT, then you do not want to win.  Why in the hell would a VT indicate they're a VT on day 1...for which you're suggesting 2 of you did, possibly a 3rd.  This would knock out 3 people the scum already do not have to fool with, making the chance of not only finding the cop but other power roles that much easier.  After day 1 and the mislynch on Robert, the town would not have to worry about 3 people, with 2 chances of finding a power role N1.  Like seriously?  This alone would be the most unhelpful possible thing ever...to save yourselves, a VT by indicating it, and instead helping scum hit a PR more.  You know better then doing that if you're in fact a VT.  All this is, is you trying to make up an excuse on why the two of you won't be getting killed at night so when it happens people aren't questioning it, or get it down enough where it wont matter anymore.  

 

Vote: Imran

 

If people can't really see my last point especially makes Imran highly suspicious, the rest of town do not want to win.  Either it's his attempt to make an excuse of why Imran/ABT aren't being lynched at night when really they're scum, or he really is a VT and has only looked to help Scum by trying to indicate he is a VT.  Either way, neither are good, and he's gotta go.  And if he's found to be scum...it just helps the case that ABT is as well, as they're working together.  

 

Scum = Imran, ABT

 

The 3rd scum = At this point it's pointing at Canik or Whitebeard.  

[Rhizoctonia]

3.  This is obvious attempt to explain why Imran/ABT are getting lynched at night.

 

 

*Aren't

[Ali bin Turban]

Wow, this game has made interesting turn and it seems it'll end really quick .

 

1. You asked why I've suspected TW and not Canik and I've answered:

 

In my eyes there's a big difference between Canik and TW. Canik is new, may have missed some posts, etc (so he got benefit of a doubt at the beginning). Secondly when you ask Canik why has he chosen to support it, he starts explaining it, shows some numbers. He's working on the idea, putting some effort. Maybe I've weakness for people that use reason, but Canik feels genuine in his efforts, even though I don't agree with them. Finally as I said, breadcrumbing is to little for me to believe someone's a scum...and I believe there's nothing more we could accuse him of (please correct me if I'm wrong).

As for TW, I don't really know why he supports it and it's suspicious to me. I'm trying to ask him about it and I get some evasive answers, emotional trips and accusations.

 

You may not like my answer, but saying I didn't answer it is a bit of stretch isn't it?

Funny thing is that I've asked you the same, why haven't you called TW. And what did you say? "I must of missed that whole interaction". Nice evasion and I've took it as genuine at that time.

 

2. You said "You only suspected him (TW) because he said Canik's idea (not even TW's idea) had merit." This one is a clear lie. I've clearly stated there are multiple reasons why I'm suspicious of TW and supporting breadcrumbs idea was just one of the reasons. I guess you must of missed that whole interaction too . 

 

3. "You call out TW for saying for a cop to invesitagte him.  You're already looking for a way to setup him as scum no matter what". So you're also thinking setting up a cop investigation in a game with framer is a good idea? Pointing out it benefits scum is "beyond hard"? Also what's about that "fixating"? What kind of argument is that? How do you differentiate between someone fixating and someone that's suspicious and is looking for evidence?

 

4. Fermion / Robert case - you've clearly missed context (have you?). I've voted on Fermion but dropped him after his explanations because I didn't find him guilty. What I meant was that we (all - players and moderator) have make a mistake (yes me too...I've admitted I've made a mistake). We got two guys that were not going to play and a replacement who we could give a fresh start by letting him replace Robert. Instead we took out the fresh start and let him take over a guy that was suspected by some of the players. Surely it would be great if I've realized that before we made a move. I didn't and I've admitted that. It would also be great if someone else would realize and post that argument...but noone has.

 

5. Lyner's case: I think most of the people will agree that scum's priority is to take out cop as soon as possible. Most usually cop will not go actively scum hunting - because that's what usually gets people killed at night. Good mafia will not shoot people randomly, they'll look for behavior patterns that may give away high value targets they're looking for.  Killing someone to frame someone else is terrible idea. Which statement is right? "Y is a scum because X pointed at him and now is dead" / " Scum are trying to frame Y by killing X"? You never know. You may agree or not with suspicions that killed guy had, but that's all. But hey, since that's fairy tale for you, I got some "reasonable" explanation from your pal, TW:

 

"1) Rafay is scum and figured that Lyner would eventually end up voting to lynch him at a later time."

 

6.  You said: "I played as scum in another, and I know many wanted to get the likes of ABT/Imran/Mand out quickly for their experience and activity...and yet that didn't happen.  I find it more suspicious you two especially weren't lynched...instead of someone who wasn't all the active."

 

So you say that when you were a scum many of you wanted to take Me/Imran out and yet we weren't killed. And now you think we should be taken out but still are alive and that's suspicious...wow, just look at that...it's all like in that other games where you were a scum. I don't really know what were you trying to say, other than shooting yourself in the foot.

 

I think that's enough. I'm very surprised because after all that days of your nice posting I see old Rhizo coming out. It seems that you've lost your temper after I've started prodding TW and came with the very same emotional crap (no offense) that contains no logic whatsoever. It's also really telling that you don't find any of TW's actions suspicious (even calling for cop in framer's game is justified for you and I'm "fixated scum" for calling him out on this ). I'm 100% certain that TW and You (that's a shocker, I must admit) are scum buddies, as I've never seen anyone defending someone else so hard and in a such scummy fashion.

 

 

I'm not going to relate to anything you say about Imran. It's to late and he's old enough to explain himself too .

[Chaplain of death]

unvote

Looks like i have to go back and analyze the walls

[Rhizoctonia]

No, I'm not defending TW that he's town or Scum, I've already stated I'm not sold either way.  What I am is me being sick and tired of you and Imran's pompous ass attitude every game.  Every game you both do the same shit, and every game you act as if you're the only one who knows how to play this game.  It's pretty obvious that whatever TW says you literally are going to spin however you like and not actually listen to it, all you do is look for a way to make it scummish to fit your theory.  You suspect someone and rather then actually listen to what the say, you just look to turn it around on them, it's obvious clear.  It doesn't take a genius to spot it, and how hard you're looking to get him lynched is proof enough.

 

1. You asked why I've suspected TW and not Canik and I've answered:

 

In my eyes there's a big difference between Canik and TW. Canik is new, may have missed some posts, etc (so he got benefit of a doubt at the beginning). Secondly when you ask Canik why has he chosen to support it, he starts explaining it, shows some numbers. He's working on the idea, putting some effort. Maybe I've weakness for people that use reason, but Canik feels genuine in his efforts, even though I don't agree with them. Finally as I said, breadcrumbing is to little for me to believe someone's a scum...and I believe there's nothing more we could accuse him of (please correct me if I'm wrong).

As for TW, I don't really know why he supports it and it's suspicious to me. I'm trying to ask him about it and I get some evasive answers, emotional trips and accusations.

 

You may not like my answer, but saying I didn't answer it is a bit of stretch isn't it?

Funny thing is that I've asked you the same, why haven't you called TW. And what did you say? "I must of missed that whole interaction". Nice evasion and I've took it as genuine at that time.

 

 

I stated my reasoning, that I missed it.  You on the other hand obviously didn't miss either, yet you only suspect one.  I had prior suspicion of Canik/Fermion, and my reason for voting him wasn't for breadcrumb idea, it just adds to it.  It's one thing to give Canik the benefit of the doubt day 1 about it, it's another to keep doing so when he keeps bringing it up.  There's benefits and cons to the idea in general...neither is great for either scum or town with regards to breadcrumbs...and my suspcion of Canik/Fermion didn't start because of the breadcrumb...yours on TW's did, and you've only tried to go from there.

 

2. You said "You only suspected him (TW) because he said Canik's idea (not even TW's idea) had merit." This one is a clear lie. I've clearly stated there are multiple reasons why I'm suspicious of TW and supporting breadcrumbs idea was just one of the reasons. I guess you must of missed that whole interaction too  . 

 

 

It's not a lie, up until he made that comment you didnt suspect him.  You never said you were suspicious of him prior to that.

 

Canik we've been through this and it's a bad tactic. You might want to check my post again if you've missed it: http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-1/page-4#entry856635 .

 

The Warrior, on 29 May 2016 - 11:49, said:

I think that Canik's proposal has merit. Regardless of how we each decide to post our thoughts the one thing that is clear is that we need any info that our cop gets and have it on the table in case he is killed at night. The idea of everybody posting one name each day and saying "town" or "scum" along with it would leave that breadcrumb trail for if/whenever our cop is targeted. With every single one of us posting a name each day there is a very high likelihood of more than one person giving a correct guess on a town or scum. It could help the scum narrow down the possible list of candidates to be the cop but even if it takes them two days to find him that is at least two more days worth of information that we have at our disposal.

More than anything we need everyone to actively post their thoughts each day. We need as much conversation as possible to analyze people's posts and to weed out the scum.

I am satisfied with Canik's responses so far so I will be removing my vote on him.

Unvote Canik.

I am not satisfied with Whitebeard's posts however. What is going on there? They continue to be suspicious to me.

Vote Whitebeard.

But you mister are now added to my suspects list. This is a terrible idea (even though I took my part in conceiving it) and it was already discussed why. I understand that Canik didn't get as much time as we did to think about it and also could missed some posts, but you on the other hand were taking part in that discussion and still are trying to support it. 

 

 

Please tell me where I'm wrong?  This was the first time you ever suspected him, and it was after he said  Canik's idea had merit.  So please tell me where before this you suspected him?  Please tell me before this, where you voted him?  The only reason you first started to suspect him was because of his "merit" comment, but yet you refuse to acknowledge you haven't done the same for Canik, even after he continues to push that idea.   So to act as if this wasn't a reason he's suspicious is a complete and utter lie from you.  The words are right there in the quoted text...he was added to your suspect list because of him saying it had merit and trying to support it.  So don't give me it.

 

3. "You call out TW for saying for a cop to invesitagte him.  You're already looking for a way to setup him as scum no matter what". So you're also thinking setting up a cop investigation in a game with framer is a good idea? Pointing out it benefits scum is "beyond hard"? Also what's about that "fixating"? What kind of argument is that? How do you differentiate between someone fixating and someone that's suspicious and is looking for evidence?

 

It's not hard to see when someone becomes fixated, they act like you where you don't actually take in what anyone says, you only look to dissect it to somehow make it scummish, which is what you've been doing.  I already said this in my first paragraph of this response about how you don't do this.  The cop thing is just another way of you doing that, as you already said no matter the outcome of the cop you're not going to believe it, so that's what I'm getting at.  Your sold already no matter what outcome comes of it, and sold no matter what TW or anyone says you suspect.  The mere fact you've thought how the scum would play this seems like you obviously have been discussing it.  

 

4. Fermion / Robert case - you've clearly missed context (have you?). I've voted on Fermion but dropped him after his explanations because I didn't find him guilty. What I meant was that we (all - players and moderator) have make a mistake (yes me too...I've admitted I've made a mistake). We got two guys that were not going to play and a replacement who we could give a fresh start by letting him replace Robert. Instead we took out the fresh start and let him take over a guy that was suspected by some of the players. Surely it would be great if I've realized that before we made a move. I didn't and I've admitted that. It would also be great if someone else would realize and post that argument...but noone has.

 

 

And yet, he had suspicion, more suspicion then Robert and could of gave us information, and yet you didn't do anything about it.  You voted someone no one was going to lynch.  You could of looked to lynch someone to give information, but you did not, your vote on Lyner was as good as a vote on Robert, it was a wasted that you knew wasn't going to get lynched.  It still would of been better to kill off Canik/Fermion even after Canik replaced him then Robert an inactive that hopefully we got a replacement for and could go from there, but you didn't.  

 

 

6.  You said: "I played as scum in another, and I know many wanted to get the likes of ABT/Imran/Mand out quickly for their experience and activity...and yet that didn't happen.  I find it more suspicious you two especially weren't lynched...instead of someone who wasn't all the active."

 

So you say that when you were a scum many of you wanted to take Me/Imran out and yet we weren't killed. And now you think we should be taken out but still are alive and that's suspicious...wow, just look at that...it's all like in that other games where you were a scum. I don't really know what were you trying to say, other than shooting yourself in the foot.

 

 

Imran was eventually killed and both you and Imran were unanimous on wanting to get out first.  The only reason Imran wasn't the first night was because he came out with his "holding grudges," crap and the group felt if he ended up dead first night people may think that could be why, someone out for a grudge.  So we went KH because he made indications he might be a cop.  You were eventually killed I believe too.  Sorry, I was in the chat lobby, I know which two  the scum wanted out first and they were you both.  Imran only squeaked by because of his calling out everyone about grudges or he would of been N1.  When that game is over, I'll be glad to give you link to that chat and see I'm spot on.  So yea, i know what I'm talking about, i was there.

 

I think that's enough. I'm very surprised because after all that days of your nice posting I see old Rhizo coming out. It seems that you've lost your temper after I've started prodding TW and came with the very same emotional crap (no offense) that contains no logic whatsoever. It's also really telling that you don't find any of TW's actions suspicious (even calling for cop in framer's game is justified for you and I'm "fixated scum" for calling him out on this ). I'm 100% certain that TW and You (that's a shocker, I must admit) are scum buddies, as I've never seen anyone defending someone else so hard and in a such scummy fashion.

 

 

Lol, yea I'm nice Rhiz when I'm not suspecting you.  No, old Rhizo has come out because I'm tired of the same ol rehortic you both throw out each game, and this game, I am pretty certain you both are.  You can disregard all I have to say as much as you want, I don't care.  That's all you look to do, just say there's no logic in anything I say, it's emotional, etc.  You think you're the only thought that makes sense, and this game I'm sold you're scum and I'm not going call you out on it before the town loses.  Maybe you'll realize one day I'm not alone in being tired of the arrogant nature of you both.  I don't care if you look to lynch me buddy, maybe then people will take what I say and realize it's got merit and they'll lynch you scum.  If you think lynching me worries me, it doesn't.  No what's apparent is you and Imran are scum buddies and looking to push a lynch, and even more so Imran looking to find some reason to explain why you both wont be killed at night.  I'm not defending him(TW), I'm speaking up for anyone whose seen you not listen to someone's responses and instead look to just find a way to make them scummish when you think you have anyone, the only difference is this game it looks like your acting as the scum.  

 

And of course you will ignore Imran's comment.  If anyone else said that, you'd be on their shit quicker then flies on a horses ass.  Please tell me how it would be smart of a VT to look to indicate he's a VT on day 1, putting the RP's in more harms way.  Please tell me how it's better that a VT is known and is kept alive because the scum aren't worried about them then keeping their role hidden and hopefully take the death over a player with a power.  But you don't comment.  Anyone else, you'd be calling for their lynch, but since he's with you you're not.  Don't worry, I certainly suspect that you will once Imran comes on with some crap excuse for it and you'll be there to back him up.  I've gone through the posts, no where did Imran look to indicate that, nor you...and even if you did it would be the worst thing for town.  All it was, was a reason for people not to suspect you both when you're not killed at night, and a real bad choice by Imran.  If the rest of town can't see that, then the rest of town want to lose...which it won't be my fault.  

 

I've proved myself town plenty this game, if people want to suspect me, go ahead, if I get lynched I get lynched....hopefully then people will see the reality of the truth.  I'm not worried 1  bit...I'm as pro town as it gets.  I wasn't sold on TW, but the fact that you and Imran have gone out of your way to push a lynch on him, and how you've looked to literally turn every word TW has said into being scum is either a scum working over time or a townie who doesn't care what the person they suspect says, it doesn't make a difference, there's no point in trying to argue with someone who won't take anything as anything other then scummish.  If you think you coming at me bothers me, it doesn't...it just adds fuel to the fire if I got lynched.

 

I welcome any votes on me.  If it will help people then start seeing the light of what I'm trying to point out, then all is welcome to lynch me.  I just hope afterwards, you don't buy into anymore of the BS Imran/ABT look to spew and start lynching them.  I've made my claims of 2 scum...the 3rd is up in the air, but my first two guesses would be Canik/Whitebeard...but who knows it could be someone who hardly posts.  But with it down to a single scum...I like the odds for town. 

[SeaBeeGipson]

Unvote.

Going to read through the walls of text and see where this goes.

From what I've skimmed, AbT and Imran seem to have come out very scummish. I have been on the fence about TW for a while and they do bring up a good point of TW essentially wasting the cops action just to leave us guessing whether the framer had targeted him as well or not.

My guess, while completely off the wall, Imran, AbT, and TW are scum. By leading a rally against one of their own and once he's killed, he'd be confirmed a scum, it'd make them look like townies. Safe for a few more days, grab a few more kills. Put the targets on other people while the town back tracks and tries to discover who the other 2 scum are.

As far as voting Rafay because he's inactive. I stated in my original reasoning that it looks scummy to barely post and the one post you make on D2 is voting for a semi-active player, referring to him as lurking. While I agree Robert had no posts to go off of, Rafay did make a post. It would've made more sense to vote Isocialism or Whitebeard if we're trying to get the lurkers to come out, not someone who has been contributing since the beginning. And I would've made that vote whether the target was me or not. However, granted these recent posts, I have a strong feeling we have at least 2 scums involved. I'd rather my vote go towards someone who is actively showing scummy behavior than someone who made a scum-like post or two.

For right now, I won't place a vote just yet. I'm stuck between Imran and AbT as the more scummy target, but I want to give Imran the opportunity to respond to Rhizo's comments above.

[Rhizoctonia]

This will be my last long post for awhile hopefully.  I am sold on Imran and won't be changing it after his comment.  The only way I will change is if ABT needs another vote, as they both are likely scum to me.  

 

So I'll eeborate more on exactly what I'm talking about.

 

You ask me why I didn't suspect TW when he supported the idea as well.  I already stated I missed this dialogue between both you and TW.  Since you pointed it out, I wasn't sold one way or other on TW, but your recent push makes me think more he is.  Now when it comes to Canik...I said early on, well before Canik came out supporting the idea I found both him and Whitebeard scummish, and was going to vote either of them.  Canik rehashing the whole breadcrumb idea was not the reason I voted him, but it certainly didn't help.  Imran also supported the idea after the holes were presented, and I even stated he was on my suspicious list but I wasn't sold on that.  So at most, if I saw TW's comments, I'd do the same as I would have with Imran, called him out for it and be suspicious but not sold one way or the other.  For that matter, if we were only going off the breadcrumb idea, Mandarijn and you could be just as much, one brought up the idea the other liked it...but I gave you both the benefit of the doubt because you may not have thought about it at all angles.  

 

The difference is, my suspicion of Canik didn't start at him liking the breadcrumbs idea, it was before that...your suspicion of TW only started when he said it had merit.  I'm not talking yet about what has come after, I'm talking about you first started being suspicious when he agreed it had merit.  Prove me wrong, as I don't think you can.

 

I'd also point out, TW wasn't the only one supporting the idea after the holes were pointed out.  As I already said, Imran was as well.  

 

I like Mandarijn's idea. With everyone posting there scum/town predictions it will be extremely hard for the scum to pinpoint in on the real cop. Some people may get things right even by random guessing. So its not like only the cop will have correct predictions. The scum wont know for sure who is just guessing and who has actual info. The results will only be for 2 nights (assuming the cop comes out on the 3rd day) so the scum wont have enough of a sample size to weed out the guesses from the correct info. I think this is a very good insurance policy for the town in that the night results from the cop will not get lost even if he gets killed before revealing them.

 

 

You didn't suspect him though for saying that after I pointed out the bad things about the idea.  If the first thing TW said that made you suspicious was agreeing with the idea, then why didn't you suspect or put pressure on Imran when he said that?  Again if that all it took for you. 

 

Now let's look into something else you said

 

I hate when people get really cheap and bring RL as an excuse: "I don't have time to play", "I don't care about this game anymore" ... yet they lurk on. That's the lowest scum can fall in order to save his hide

 

 

This I completely disagreed with, and think it's a bit low of you.  I for one know this...i for one dealt with this in two mafia games, and times will in this one.  I was forced to take time away I had with my wife (which at times is little) because I was being suspected in both games, and had I not taken the time I would of been lynched for sure.  I was a SK and a scum, but neither my roles were any reason for not posting or strategy, it was real life getting in the way.  So I have sympathy for people who have this happen to them.  Normally I'd let it go, but yet Imran was one to call me out for it in past games and made me take time away to do so, you were one of them, so I'm not so quickly to give something that was not given to me, understanding.  But yet...you make this remark and Imran has been inactive and not posting up til today, yet you didn't call him out or suspect him like you did with me and others in other games.  COD has had the same thing in this game, you haven't called him out either.  Why not?  Is somehow they different then me?  Is somehow their real life more important then mine was in the past?  Why you so understanding with them and not me?  

 

Now that we're done with that, let's get into the points I have made about you being fixated and looking to switch whatever TW says into something else.  You want to know why I don't suspect TW from your claims, because your evidence is pretty hollow, it merely reeks of desperation to push a lynch.

 

1. It started from his posting style - no substance in it. Just making sure to be seen around.

2. He turns out to be a supporter of that dangerous "breadcrumb" idea. When I point it out he comes with very evasive answer:

 

I don't care how we decide to do it ultimately. We just need activity, participation, and information. We need whatever information that the cop can provide. We can't afford to lose it before it can be shared because otherwise we literally have nothing but instinct to act on (or the slim chance of the jail keeper targeting the correct scum member at night and preventing a kill).
 

Just another hollow statement that we need to be active and cant afford to loose cop. And on top of it, TW does not care what we'll do. Well, I do care and I don't want us to act in a way that will make it easier for the scum.

 

1.  You suddenly now start saying his posts have no substance.  Yet no where in Day 1 did you ever even suggest that or call him out for that, you just suddenly did

2.  For someone who isn't trying to use the supporter of a breadcrumb idea, you sure keep bringing it up as a reason for a lynch. 

 

The second paragraph, you're literally trying to read way into something.  You say he has no substance, well let me point you to another persons post who has as much substance.

 

Take Mandarijn's first two posts on day 2

I guess we should start with pressuring the lurkers again...

 

Rafay, iSoc, Whitebeard! You guys need to participate more!!!

 

Let's pressure the lurkers!

 

Vote: iSoc

 

 

If you want to go off no substance and just wanting to be seen...Mandarijn's would be that.

 

By all means ABT, go ahead and continue your quest to have me lynched. I'm sure that the mafia will appreciate you wasting your time and everyone else's. The rest of the town on the other hand will not appreciate it.

 

That has scum written all around it. There's no arguments, no reasoning here. He's not even trying to discuss (like for instance Lyner did when I poked him), he's just evading with some emotional trick that's supposed to make me feel guilty for suspecting him.

 

 

Again, reading way into nothing.  

 

But then again, you bring up the same thing TW said, but a few posts later

 

"By all means ABT, go ahead and continue your quest to have me lynched. I'm sure that the mafia will appreciate you wasting your time and everyone else's. The rest of the town on the other hand will not appreciate it."

 

I don't see why a town would use this argument (desperate one, sure - desperate ones tend to make desperate moves). It has no discussion value, it's just an emotional attack. Town that's wrongly accused will try to explain his motives and reasoning because it's natural for him. He's not afraid because he's done nothing wrong - after all he's a town. Scum does not have that comfort (obviously he can't explain his motives) so he's prone to respond emotionally.

 

 

If we didn't get it the first time, now let's resay what we just said as seemingly more evidence.  And in fact, he seems to have to be afraid because you're the one going after him pushing the lynch.  How can you say town has nothing to worry about...he very well has something to worry about, you're trying your hardest to lynch him when I have yet to see him do anything that wrong besides be ok with breadcrumbs which means Canik and Imran should be as suspected as him.

 

Ali bin Turban: Seemed townie on day 1. I'm less certain now. We should definitely be analyzing people's habits and discussing them but that doesn't mean that we abandon strategy at the same time. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. Only scum would want us to get away from strategizing especially since they can't do so together during the day.
Could be either but I think this could be the first game we see ABT as scum.

 

Again, he's not even trying to reason as rational town would do. Rational town is never sure who's who. He'll rather show proofs of his innocence than strike blindly because he knows the risk. No, instead TW looks for an argument to hit me back. And he finds just one and really weak one and use it to come into conclusion I'm a scum. Why do I think it's weak? I believe my actions and participation speak for me (but if anyone has something against me, come out and speak, I'm not afraid to explain myself).

 

I'm looking for a scum. I'm probing people, poking them, because I don't know who they are. I'm not afraid to vote on someone just to put more pressure on him. What's TW's approach? Evade questions and strike back with accusation. At the same time he didn't even have balls to vote on me. Probably afraid to be the first one

 

I read this...when did he ever say you were scum.  He didn't say it, he said he's less certain now.  How many people have said something has made them less certain someone's town but not voted them?  I think there is some examples of this in this very game.  

 

My biggest suspect is for now TW (I agree with Lyner on that). I've already mentioned one of the reasons (at the beginning). I also find his posts suspicious in general. If you dig into them in order to get any substance there's not much to be found. Just some general truths and summaries

 

 

These are the ones I love from you and Imran, you both like to use the phrase, "I find someone's posts suspicious."  Yet it's a blanket statement every time, no where did you cite an example.  Imran has done the same with King Hitler on here..."I found some of his posts a bit scummy as well."  I mean you want to talk about no substance, how hard is it for someone to just say, "yea posts are scummy."  My posts maybe long, I at least try to point to examples.  Again, you never had a problem or mentioned a problem with TW before the breadcrumbs, after he said it had merit then you start slinging out about his past posts.  You weren't afraid to call out people for their posts or thoughts day 1...why if you were so suspicious of them didnt you do the same for TW?  

 

 

Secondly, I don't see you pressing people to post. Posting "People need to post more" or stating obvious facts "iSocialism is lurking, he could be a scum" is no pressure. That's just repeating what everyone thinks. What did you do about Lyner apart from writing "Lyner needs to post more" i one of your many summaries? Did it make Lyner post more? Or maybe it was me who prodded him and forced into more active stance? 

You're forced to be active, because everyone would notice your lurking instantly (it would be extremely odd for a generally active person to lurk) so you're active in a way that gives town little benefits.

 

 

If you're basing that as a reason to vote TW, why are you singling him out?  I've already linked 2 posts by Mandarijn who said exactly what you're describing, saying repeating what everyone thinks.  

 

Here's another by Mandarijn

 

Yeah, you're right, now we're doing shit. Everyone is being quiet (me included   ), this is not helping at all... We should still share our thoughts and play like normal. We need to continue playing like normal and accuse people and get everyone to talk as we can't rely on the cop, so the accusations and talking might be the only things we have...

 

My thoughts and accusations on everyone:

- Chaplain is more quiet than usual, normally he's one of the top posters

- Ali is playing like normal in my eyes (even though I've only played 1 game), could be town or scum. He would be smart enough to keep his playing style.

- Imran has been rather quiet, I have no read about him yet, so could be both. He seems to be pushing less than in other games though.

- TW: I don't know about him. He's always been scum before, so I'm not sure how he plays as a townie. Could be either...

- Rhizo has the same problem (was SK and scum), but he feels town to me for once

- Rafay is always suspicious to me, he got accused early on D1 and he actually tried to defend himself and became pretty active for a second. I don't remember him doing this in the other games we played. Now the accusations dropped and he's again just riding along... 

- KH and Whitebeard are new, not much there. If I had to say something I would say KH is town, Whitebeard could be either.

- Canik, also could be both, but I'm leaning towards town

- iSoc is not posting much AGAIN, so not much to go of there

 

So yeah, like always a lot of possible scums.    Now talk!

 

I'm also tempted to vote for Rafay, because it's Rafay, he's always suspicious and I wouldn't mind lynching him at all as he'll be little help all game. But I want to see some other guys post 1st...

 

 

His first paragraph was pretty much what all townies would think...it's not really helpful.  His list also doesn't really force anyone to post...yet you don't go after him.  His list is what probably most are thinking of each person without any real evidence one way or the other

 

Finally, you've been on Fermion's bandwagon (to be clear, I was 3rd), jumped as a 4th one  - quite a safe number, to stay away from the heat should he turn out not to be a town (coupled with that you were not pressing him). You're also constantly reminding us about Whitebeard. This is not much on it's own, but I'm mentioning that to show that If you turn out to be scum, those two are most likely to be confirmed townies (Canik for sure, Whitebeard less so).

 

 

Already stated, but I will say again.  A blatant stretch as a reason.  IMO someone jumping on 3rd is a lot safer number then #4 who would be the deciding vote on if he's lynched.  4 probably the least safest...case and point look at King Hitler.  Imran suspects him because he was #4 on the Robert vote...he didn't go after #3 or #2 or #1 on that.  Yet 3 is less safe then 4 in your eyes.  

 

I'll cut my responses not to make wall of text. What you propose is extremely bad idea. As a matter of fact you're literally asking cop to waste his action.

What is investigation worth with the knowledge that framer can alter its results if he pleases so? If you get scum result, you'll argue you got framed. If you get town result I won't believe (and probably not only me) it because of the blatant setup that is possible here

 

 

Now there is a chance a framer could make TW's townie turn to scum....but to your response if he gets town you wont believe him has already been proved wrong.  Kevin has since stated a framer can't turn a scum into town...so if he in fact came out town, he is town. (this info is in the wiki of mafia as well, before Kevin posted) It could be a waste like you said, because they could look to frame him and make us believe he's scum...but that's it.  Not only that, but this is a very statement I'd likely make if someone was suspicious of me without thinking of all the scenarios.  At this point, I would agree it wouldn't be wise for the cop to look at TW because the framer would likely have the best shot of using his ability right, and if he came up scum it wouldn't be 100% certain either way, though I'd likely have to lynch him just in case.  But if suggesting an idea without thinking about all the scenarios was the reason to be lynched, you and Mandarijn and anyone else who agreed upon the breadcrumbs without me pointing out the problems with it then should be.

 

So case in point...all I see is very little evidence of anything.  What I see more is someone pushing reasons to get TW lynched which can be said for the likes of many people.  Mandairjn has been used as an example, but same could be said for King Hitler who hasn't posted tons of "substance" nor really looked to scum hunt, and Rafay, isocialism, whitebeard, COD, etc.  You want to point me to something TW has done that others can't be said the same for, then do so. The only thing so far that's any damning is his cop idea, yet could be him saying it before running scenarios of that being bad. You say you're scum-hunting, no, you're hunting a single person using reasons I could say for the whole bunch.  What I find most damning with you is your difference in this game then others.  Other games you call people out to get lynched when not active or use real life, yet you don't go after Imran for that...you go after TW for agreeing with breadcrumb idea, you don't go after Imran who agreed with still using it first after i said it was bad, you go after TW for not scum-hunting, but Imran has been inactive and hasn't either and TW has more then him, Imran just posted a very damning piece that pretty sums up he is scum, yet you don't go after him, you don't even call him out for it, you just let him speak for himself.  You have singled out an individual for very soft reasons, while shedding a blind eye to an Individual that has more going against him, and any other game he'd be your #1 suspect.  I mean I get why, he's already linked himself to you multiple times, you two are working in pair, so if one goes down and is scum, the other is likely to, especially Imran's last comment about the VT claiming where he singled you specifically out.  

 

All I see is someone starting to suspect someone because of a breadcrumb idea, and then using very soft arguments for things he said afterwards to make it more of a case against him....for which most can be said for multiple people.  If two people are more connected together, it's you and Imran.  And now, with Imran's latest comment, it is beyond suspicious to me, and it also links you with him.  

 

And lastly, let me refresh your memory from the CN game when I tried to claim I was a VT.  You called me out that a VT wouldn't try to save themselves and get (D3mon) who was inactive but likely had a PR lynched.  Imran's comment suggests the idea both you and him tried to indicate you were VT's on Day 1.  So please, without going completely against what you said, why would a VT look to out themselves on Day 1 they were a VT to save themselves and help the chances the scum hits a PR?  How would that be a good move to help out town?  Because it wouldn't be.  All it is, is Imran trying to take suspicion on why you and him won't get killed at night and using a horrible reason that if anything, only proves he's scum, because a VT would never do that.  This whole game we have been discussing ways to keep the cop hid the longest as well as get information out in case he died before he could...and then Imran suggests he and you indicated you were VT's that simply would make the cop or other PR's found quicker.  It was a crappy theory to try to explain why you two wont be killed at night, and it just puts a final dagger in you both that you're scum.  

 

I had a hunch yesterday you were maybe scum which is why I asked you the question.  But now with Imran posting and looking even more like you two are in cahoots, and the whole VT thing...yea Imran officially has solidified it for me and makes any suspicion of TW go away.  I don't care which one of you goes today, both I am pretty sold are going to come up scum...and if the first one comes up scum then the other is done for as well.  

[Imran Ehsan]

woow. Holy hell..walls of texts. Rhizo back to his completely scummy rants again. This reminds me of him from the last game when he suddenly came alive after being accused of scum and started posting walls and walls of texts full of incoherent rambling. This time it seems we hit a raw nerve with voting on TW. I am not sureif he does this on purpose..but its almost impossible to respond to all his accusations when he is writing hundreds of lines in a row. You tried it last game too but it did not work..you were still lynched as scum. I had a good townie vibe from you, but seems like you have gone back to your scummy rants.
 
Anyway, lets see if I can make sense of some of his ramblings piece by piece. Please bear with me as I may not get to all of them in one go but I will address them all. Walls of rants does not mean you get a free pass. Here we go.

 

Imran is the individual who posts more then anyone when he's town. Yet this game, he suddenly has gone inactive yet pops back up when there is a needed push on TW. Now, we all have real life, I know this, but yet two other games where real life was the culprit for me not posting I wasn't given the benefit of the doubt. In fact, ABT pushed hard for me for that very reason because there was no issue with lynching me, I wasn't scum hunting or anything. In fact, I even made a post during the day that my real life was busy, just like Imran did, yet wasn't given the benefit of the doubt. I was forced to be active in those games because If I didn't I was for sure dead and I gave up little time I had with my wife for it. Even this very game, ABT called out how he hates when people try to use the "real life" excuse for not posting, for which I called him out for. But yet, Imran has sat here not posting, and ABT hasn't gone after him like he did me in other games. If I'm not gonna get the benefit of the doubt in other games, do you think I am going to give someone who wouldn't for me? No, Imran has been on these boards, he found the time to make a thread about Game of Thrones through this all, and hasn't posted anything but now suddenly pops out when ABT needs momentum to kill TW. Yea, awful convenient.

 

What? So I am scummy because I was busy in RL and had not had time to read the thousands of lines of crap you were posting in this thread? I am sorry but reading your posts really make me stop playing this game because I dont have the time to read lines and lines of your ramblings in the limited time I have to come and play this game. So forgive me if I post something more interesting ala "Game of Thrones" thread because I cant make myself read through your walls and walls of rants in this thread.

 

Secondly, please stop whining about what happened to you in another game. If anyone gave you a free pass or not. Its pathetic. You posted scummy and you looked scummy and you were therefore lynched and town was right. Whining about it now wont change it.

[Imran Ehsan]

Now let's dig into Imran. Imran is the one who always pushes a lynch D1, yet was no where to be found on D1 for who got lynched, he in fact voted off someone who didn't stand a chance to get lynched instead of jumping on Robert. He in fact, took his vote off Fermion just so he wouldn't maybe get a late lynch on him. His reasoning, it's better to lynch a totally inactive one then an active one. So if you felt it was better to lynch an inactive one, why didn't you vote Robert? Why did you make sure to take your vote of Fermion/Canik?

 

Again, didnt you try this last game as well? Trying to twist my words into what Is aid or did not say. OK then. I will break it down for you in very easy small sentences so its easy to understand and you cant try to misinterpret in any way you want.

 

1. I have always advocated for a Lynch on D1.

2. I have always said Lurkers should be lynched on D1, not inactives who can be replaced and in this game specially wont be able to give an indication if they were PRs or now.

3. I was the one who thought Fermions posts were extremely scummy. I called him out and laid out my reasons. But he responded with some very reasonable arguments which made me rethink my accusation.

4. I am not extremely stiff or so sure of myself that I think I am always right. If someone can explain their actions/posts I look at it objectively and reassess. Fermions response convinced me that he should not be lynched based on the info we have on D1.

 

 

5. That does not mean I agree that the inactive Robert should be lynched. Inactive Robert should be replaced. I unvoted from Fermion because I did not wish to see him lynched on D1 specially as Canik had just replaced him. He was on 3 votes then, 1 more vote and he would have been lynched ahead of Robert. So of course as it was a choice between Robert and Canik, I said better Robert than Canik from whom i was interested to hear more in the later days.

 

6. Again, this does not mean I support the Lynch of a complete inactive on D1. I said lurkers should be lynched and I moved to vote the lurker iSocialism.

 

Day 1: Lurker needs to be lynched, not inactives or actives. Is this clear now or will you spin some more tale about what I was tryng to do?

 

Ok on to your next rant.

 

O, because you didn't want to be associated with the lynch of a townie, and now look to turn that around on KH because he was the deciding vote. Now we're day 2, now Imran is all against voting a lurker or an inactive person, and instead wants to go after an active player. His reasoning to not vote Canik Day 1 was because he rather an inactive over and active, now Day 2 comes, and it's the exact opposite. You had the opportunity to not vote an inactive on Day 1, you had the opportunity to vote someone who would give us something as well as likely help clear your name, but no you didn't...voting an inactive one in your book is better then voting an active one...yet now it's not.

Why not do the same Day 1? Why not use the lynch to gain information. What does lynching an inactive or a lurker give us for day 2? I pointed out several benefits of lynching Canik and information we could gain, you ignored it and voted a lurker who would of gave us the same information we got from Robert.

 

I already said, after Fermions final post I no longer was getting scum vibes from Canik. But it seems like you are trying to bring out what happened in Day 1 and try to get a lynch on Canik today. Interesting.

[Imran Ehsan]

Of course scum would want the active ones out first, what are they left with...whitebeard who rarely posts, Rafay and Isocialism who are quiet...yea easy win

 

Lynching inactives day after day is a very bad strategy. It gives no info for scum hunting. Like I said a safe lynch for the scum. For good or bad we need to take out an active scum first. Just ranting about it doesnt make your accusation valid. Look at the last 2 games you played. Lynching inactives gave no info to town. Hwen you got lynched winning became very easy for town because then we know ppl who were taking sides and which sides. Its not that hard to understand. Spinning wont make it so.

[Imran Ehsan]

I didn't see anyone suggest such, and if in fact you did that as a VT, then you do not want to win. Why in the hell would a VT indicate they're a VT on day 1...for which you're suggesting 2 of you did, possibly a 3rd. This would knock out 3 people the scum already do not have to fool with, making the chance of not only finding the cop but other power roles that much easier. After day 1 and the mislynch on Robert, the town would not have to worry about 3 people, with 2 chances of finding a power role N1. Like seriously? This alone would be the most unhelpful possible thing ever...to save yourselves, a VT by indicating it, and instead helping scum hit a PR more. You know better then doing that if you're in fact a VT. All this is, is you trying to make up an excuse on why the two of you won't be getting killed at night so when it happens people aren't questioning it, or get it down enough where it wont matter anymore.

 

I never said I claimed to be a VT on D1. Again, you are trying to spin words that I did not say. Dude, it didnt work for you last game. People figured out (although late) that you were scum and you are back to this again.

 

Anyway, I never said I claimed VT. Some of the posts ppl were making make it pretty clear to understand who is posting from the POV of a VT and some who were being very ambiguous (like Lyner). I said things like "guys with PR this is what you should do..etc etc." This indicates that I am a VT. Of course I may be trying to throw the scum off my trail by acting like that but the fact remains that some of us posted from the POV of a VT. You are again spinning and spinning things to get another lynch wagon on me. deja vu? Last time you were scum and posted pretty much the same things..taking words from my mouth and spinning them to make it seem like what you wanted me to say. Back to your old tricks again?

[Imran Ehsan]

I'm very surprised because after all that days of your nice posting I see old Rhizo coming out. It seems that you've lost your temper after I've started prodding TW and came with the very same emotional crap (no offense) that contains no logic whatsoever.

 

By the way. This is exactly my thought after I saw his post. The old scum Rhizo is making an appearance again.

 

Of course now he will claim that we are both scums backing each other up.

 

You clearly were not in the game where I was in fact a scum, and people who played that game can confirm, I was extremely cautious to ensure that nothing could tie me to my scum buddies. I kept a very safe distance from other scum so if one gets lynched I dont get grouped as a scum as well. So even if I was scum I would not be backing up ABT like this. By the way, I have good strong townie vibes from Mandarijn as well.

 

You guys need to learn this too when you are scum. See what happened in TWs game. One scum falls and the rest of you are falling like a pack of cards.

What I am is me being sick and tired of you and Imran's pompous ass attitude every game. Every game you both do the same shit, and every game you act as if you're the only one who knows how to play this game.

 

Well this explains it.

 

Emotional bull shit.

 

You are not scum hunting. You are trying to get back at us because we lynched your ass in the last game?

So anyway, I skimmed through the rest of his posts and he is basically ranting about the same things and still whining about the last game where he claimed VT and no one believed him. I dont see anything else of substance that I have not already addressed above.

 

If I missed any point, let me know (preferably in less than 5 lines) and I will address them.