237 replies to this topic

[ccabal86]

Blunt and frank BnT, kudos for speaking your mind. I'm in agreement with some of what you say (migrants), and I definitely agree that EU politicians need to get their heads out of their asses and FAST, or we may see the whole thing unravel.

And yeah, fuck SJWs

[SeaBeeGipson]

 If you are a Social Justice Warrior, a member of the PC brigade its probably best to skip my post, sit around hold hands and sing kumbaya and not open the spoiler.   This is not meant to be a racist diatribe, I have tried to give a personal balanced opinion from my perspective.  Please stick any and all cries of racism and cultural marxisim supporting comments up your derriere; Im sick of lefties, SJW's and the PC brigade shouting "Racist, Homophobe" etc etc in order to shut down any and all vocal dissent.  

Triggered.

 If you are a Social Justice Warrior, a member of the PC brigade its probably best to skip my post, sit around hold hands and sing kumbaya and not open the spoiler.   This is not meant to be a racist diatribe, I have tried to give a personal balanced opinion from my perspective.  Please stick any and all cries of racism and cultural marxisim supporting comments up your derriere; Im sick of lefties, SJW's and the PC brigade shouting "Racist, Homophobe" etc etc in order to shut down any and all vocal dissent.  

Triggered.

[Theophilos]

BnT, I don't know why you thought you needed the disclaimer in red. To me your post looks well reasoned, balanced and mostly accurate (ya, clearly some people might not agree with some of your views, but nonetheless they are broadly objective).

[Shahenshah]

BnT, I don't know why you thought you needed the disclaimer in red. To me your post looks well reasoned, balanced and mostly accurate (ya, clearly some people might not agree with some of your views, but nonetheless they are broadly objective).

[onbekende]

*not reading the BnT rant*

 

EU is socialism? HA! HAHAHA! MWHWUAHAHHAHAHA!

 

Its trying to be social, its failing and its being a liberal with more rules then guidelines.

[samudragupta]

I am voting leave.
 
If you are a Social Justice Warrior, a member of the PC brigade its probably best to skip my post, sit around hold hands and sing kumbaya and not open the spoiler.   This is not meant to be a racist diatribe, I have tried to give a personal balanced opinion from my perspective.  Please stick any and all cries of racism and cultural marxisim supporting comments up your derriere; Im sick of lefties, SJW's and the PC brigade shouting "Racist, Homophobe" etc etc in order to shut down any and all vocal dissent.  

good reasons to bat for,  as problem of one will become for entire union

[Icewolf]

So firstly, I am for remain. The reason I have been gone from this forum and game is because almost all my spare time has been on the streets campaigning. The reason I am here now is because the campaigns are suspended apart from leaflets through doors because of the murder on Thursday. 

 

I don't know how widely it has been reported in the states, but on Thursday Jo Cox MP, a Labour party MP in northern England was shot 3 times, and stabbed mutliple times by a man screaming either "Put Britain First" or "Britain First." Britain First being the reincarnation of the British Nationalist Party, themselves a reincarnation of the National Front, are a pile of fascist scum, to put that in a context.

 

 On appearing in court today he stated "Death to Traitors." I've made a post here on the CN forums about that, and how I feel about it. Put shortly, write now I am feeling pretty low and pretty angry that politics has led to death, and violence has replaced words in political debate. 

[Lysistrata]

So firstly, I am for remain. The reason I have been gone from this forum and game is because almost all my spare time has been on the streets campaigning. The reason I am here now is because the campaigns are suspended apart from leaflets through doors because of the murder on Thursday. 

 

I don't know how widely it has been reported in the states, but on Thursday Jo Cox MP, a Labour party MP in northern England was shot 3 times, and stabbed mutliple times by a man screaming either "Put Britain First" or "Britain First." Britain First being the reincarnation of the British Nationalist Party, themselves a reincarnation of the National Front, are a pile of fascist scum, to put that in a context.

 

 On appearing in court today he stated "Death to Traitors." I've made a post here on the CN forums about that, and how I feel about it. Put shortly, write now I am feeling pretty low and pretty angry that politics has led to death, and violence has replaced words in political debate. 

Utterly shocked about what happened to Jo Cox. I heard the guy was tied to some neo-nazi group. Swift justice, and good luck with the coming choice... may it be the best choice. When you have time, maybe you can share with me your reason for wanting the UK to remain in the EU. Something tells me you have a better answer than... "just cuz". Good luck Ice.

[ccabal86]

I completely agree with your summary there Icewolf, and yes, this attack IS terrorism. And yes, this kind of hatred doesn't come from a vacuum.

That said, I can't help but notice that you seem to be a lot more upset now, than in the case of you run-of-the-mill Islamic terror attack. If I recall correctly, you are usually on the position that the perpetrators are social outcasts, lone wolfs, and in no way violent siglals of a silent, but perhaps more widespread sentiment. So which is it?

I think that you correctly feel that creeping extremism is an increasing problem. But perhaps you should also consider that by willingly ignoring the problem on one side, you will fuel the same problem on the other.

[Bill N Ted]

There are two things for me:

 

• Political campaigning should not have stopped for any party due to the death/murder of an Member of Parliament (MP).  Maybe if the Queen had been assassinated or nuclear war broke out but other than that I don't see why it should have stopped, people die all the time and from many causes.  The sun still rises and all parties still have an electorate to reach.
• Whilst this is a personal tragedy for her friends and loved ones it is hardly surprising to me; indeed the only thing I find surprising about her murder is the infrequency of politicians being whacked by unstable members of the public.   Politicians have a nasty habit of promising the earth to the electorate, they often lie, embellish, make promises that they have no desire, way or hope of following up or going through with in order to get to power.  I am deeply cynical of politicians and feel that 99.9% of the words coming out of their mouths are lies, words that are bought via brown envelopes under the tables by vested interests or the promise of an advisory position that pays a handsome salary when the MP leaves office by some obscure company or think tank that values the individuals opinion......

 

Political members can and should be held to a higher standard and be fully accountable for the promises they make than the general public during campaigning in order to get into office.  If I get a job as a medical Dr and lie on my CV about how good I am, lie about my medical qualifications and the wonders that I will achieve and I am found out I am looking at prison and personal ruin.  

 

MP's promise the voting public to turn shit into gold, vote for me and I will do X; often this never materialises, is lost in the sands of time, a convenient excuse is found as to why the awesome idea is no longer achievable or why doing nothing is now better.  Nothing happens to them, they sit collecting a nice salary and benefits of office for 5 years until next election when the theatrics and lies start again.  Strip them of office and throw them in prison for lying to the voters; but the only way to do that is via the law and the turkeys ain't going to vote for Christmas. 

 

I don't condone in anyway what has happened, murder is murder and is a tragedy for the friends and family; though given the amount of unhinged, naive and outright nutters in society that would take the promises that are often broken to heart I am genuinely surprised that this doesn't happen more often, though thankfully it doesn't.

[Lysistrata]

Well said BnT... I too wish to have some kind of system set up to hold politicians accountable for dishonesty. Every side, and across the board. If there is anything worse than a thief... it's a lying thief. They used to tar and feather these scumbags, now they get promotions.

[Black Rook]

Well said BnT... I too wish to have some kind of system set up to hold politicians accountable for dishonesty. Every side, and across the board. If there is anything worse than a thief... it's a lying thief. They used to tar and feather these scumbags, now they get promotions.

The public are meant to hold them accountable with their vote, but that doesn't work because almost all politicians are the same.
I feel they should lose their right to be elected at the least and their pension. It might promote more honesty.

[Icewolf]

I completely agree with your summary there Icewolf, and yes, this attack IS terrorism. And yes, this kind of hatred doesn't come from a vacuum.

That said, I can't help but notice that you seem to be a lot more upset now, than in the case of you run-of-the-mill Islamic terror attack. If I recall correctly, you are usually on the position that the perpetrators are social outcasts, lone wolfs, and in no way violent siglals of a silent, but perhaps more widespread sentiment. So which is it?

I think that you correctly feel that creeping extremism is an increasing problem. But perhaps you should also consider that by willingly ignoring the problem on one side, you will fuel the same problem on the other.

 

Well there are two things here. 

 

For the first as why I might seem more upset, I as a person do not find it easy to express emotion in a written format. Very often in these chases I will have written something expressing my feelings, only to delete it because it somehow feels contrived and fake and doesn't represent how I actually feel. In those cases often there are plenty of people expressing a universally felt outrage, so there is no value in me trying to express something that as a decent human being I know I feel and I hope others know I feel. 

 

In this case however, in that particular community, people were dismissing it and not expressing the outrage at a political murder that I felt needed to be said. No one else had said what needed to be said, so I felt obliged to say it. It took a lot of work to get it to say what I actually felt, and about six drafts before I felt it actually reflected my feelings. 

 

I also feel that there is a difference between what happens in the case of Muslim extremism and what happened here. In the case of Muslim extremism in Britain there are communities that are probably tolerant of views that lead to lone wolf attacks, but they do not represent a large percentage of the Muslim community, and are subject to huge scrutiny, question, suspicion and monitoring. And the wider Muslim community does fight back against this, and the Muslim's who I count as my friends are generally more outraged than the average person by these events because it is an act of evil done in their name. 

 

In this case, we have a murder as a result of division being openly promoted for political goals, namely Nigel Farage (and I would highlight this is more something of Grassroots out and UKIP than of Vote Leave) desperately trying to save his position in the UKIP internal civil war that is coming. Painting giant posters, writing headline newspaper articles all of which are aimed at building division. And we HAVE to call that out because unlike the Muslim extremism which is already fairly well covered in being called out and confronted, until this week we had a situation were a sizeable chunk of the political establishment were engaging in stoking racial tensions, in a far higher profile way than those who....well I actually at this point don't want to say Muslim Community because that is not true, but those who falsely use the banner of Islam to promote their own tensions have done. 

 

Yes there is a level footing to both these issues, and we need to fight both. But when you look at what you as an individual can do, what can I do about Islamic extremism? My Islamic friends are not terrorists and hate terrorism. There is no influence I can really have there. But I can fight against racism on the far right of British politics because there are people I know who are dismissing its reality, so I can persuade them, I can fight against the influences they are under. 

 

So whilst I know it may appear (and I acknowledge it may appear) that I care about one more than the other, that is absolutely not the case. My colleagues lost friends in the Bataclan. I was in Brussels as the perpetrators were hiding there. I know what this is. 

[ccabal86]

Fair enough, thanks for the clarification.

[Bill N Ted]

A personal question but are you white British icewolf? I would guess that you are urban, likely early 20's but from where do you hail?

Why are you going door to door canvassing? What's in it for you, do you get a sense of greater good, personal political aspirations for the good of society what?

I mean we are all motivated to do things, be it by basic necessity or wants, what's your motivation?

[Icewolf]

 

So firstly, I am for remain. The reason I have been gone from this forum and game is because almost all my spare time has been on the streets campaigning. The reason I am here now is because the campaigns are suspended apart from leaflets through doors because of the murder on Thursday. 

 

I don't know how widely it has been reported in the states, but on Thursday Jo Cox MP, a Labour party MP in northern England was shot 3 times, and stabbed mutliple times by a man screaming either "Put Britain First" or "Britain First." Britain First being the reincarnation of the British Nationalist Party, themselves a reincarnation of the National Front, are a pile of fascist scum, to put that in a context.

 

 On appearing in court today he stated "Death to Traitors." I've made a post here on the CN forums about that, and how I feel about it. Put shortly, write now I am feeling pretty low and pretty angry that politics has led to death, and violence has replaced words in political debate. 

Utterly shocked about what happened to Jo Cox. I heard the guy was tied to some neo-nazi group. Swift justice, and good luck with the coming choice... may it be the best choice. When you have time, maybe you can share with me your reason for wanting the UK to remain in the EU. Something tells me you have a better answer than... "just cuz". Good luck Ice.

 

 

 

A personal question but are you white British icewolf? I would guess that you are urban, likely early 20's but from where do you hail?

Why are you going door to door canvassing? What's in it for you, do you get a sense of greater good, personal political aspirations for the good of society what?

I mean we are all motivated to do things, be it by basic necessity or wants, what's your motivation?

I am going to try and answer both of you in one go, and I am afraid it will be relatively short as I don't have much time right now, but I feel you deserve an answer before the referendum and I will be out of the Country and away from internet for the next 3 days. 

 

This is quite complex as there are a myriad of different reasons, and also the reason I give now is slightly different to those at the start. 

 

Right now it is simply about aspiration. What do we want our country to be. Inside the EU there is a clear vision of a future, a future for our economy, a future for the environment, a future for our influence and place on the world. Economically the EU adds a huge chunk of GDP that we lose if we leave, and everyone apart from the specific Leave campaign group agrees on that. 

 

Alongside that, the collaboration structures for universities within the EU add a huge clout to our research capacity and capability, and really drive forward innovation and help us to become market leaders in the industries of tomorrow. 

 

We are also able to by working with other countries massively multiply our clout in the world when it comes to big issues like protecting the environment, standing up to dictators and the conduct of Russia, and working for a better world generally. When we fail to work together, as Europe did with the migrant crises, we end up with what we have seen over the last year. That was an area without a common European policy and it was a fucking disaster. 

 

What has Vote Leave painted? Well they recently released their picture of Britain. It essentially boiled down to tweaking some VAT rates, and offering an extra 5 billion a year for the NHS. And I just think really? Is that it? We throw a huge pile of cost and uncertainty into our country, we rip up our relationship with our closest neighbors, we turn our back on the structure that took Europe from the most war torn to most peaceful continent, all just so we can twiddle with tax and expenditure? 

 

Overall I see a lot of benefit to Europe. I see it when the circus my Fiancee works for has to fight piles of admin to tour in the United States, but has no administrative issues spreading its reach across Europe. I see it in the difference the NGO I used to work with had in working with its EU volunteers vs its Ukranian volunteers. I do not want to be in the situation of the Ukranians, shut out of Europe because my 90day schengen visa has expired. I see it in the science projects I visit driven by EU funds and Europe wide collaboration. I see it in the common standards being set on environmental protection for clean air and water, in basic employment protections and product safety rules that are in place to avoid a race to the bottom and basic lowering of standards. 

 

I also see the power we project. Europeans have a hell of a lot of respect for British people, and you walk into a room anywhere on the continent you get attention by being the British one. That gives us a unique capacity to influence and drive forward a Europe that is better for us, better for itself and better for all. We need a strong Europe and we are in a very strong position to make it stronger. 

 

And what are leave offering me? Racist crap from Farage on racism (and I am singling him out, although Vote Leave hold some blame as they willingly give out Grassroots out stuff from their stands, violation of electoral law but they don't give a damn), and an offer to tweak VAT here and there and offset the 40 billion predicted government cuts with 5 billion to the NHS. Why the hell would I vote for that vision?

 

EDIT: To address you directly Lys, you have seen what I have said about Donald Trump. I don't want to make this a Trump thread, but it is a nice comparison to draw. Vote Leave have run a disgustingly dishonest campaign, and Grassroots Out and UKIP have run a racist one. Two things I attack Trump for. But unlike Trump, rather than a "make our country great again," they offer all that shit side of politics and only promise a minor spending increase on one specific area. Would you vote for that?

[onbekende]

Well said BnT... I too wish to have some kind of system set up to hold politicians accountable for dishonesty. Every side, and across the board. If there is anything worse than a thief... it's a lying thief. They used to tar and feather these scumbags, now they get promotions.

We (Belgium) are currently rolling out a plan that each political party writes up their plans for after election and our independent "National Bank" goes to calculate what each pieace would cost/produce when implemented (if they so wish to do so, but its obvious in their best interest to join). Cause before it was usually their internal think thanks that calced it out, with occationally hilarious discrepencies between parties

[Shahenshah]

Whichever way you choose, you'll eventually be screwed by the 0.001% politicians.

BnT is right on spot about the whole Fiat ponzy scheme as the main economic policy these days. Om glad there is someone else who shares this opinion. People would have called you crazy conspiracies few years ago. This whole money out of thin air shit is going to blow up on everyone's face one of these decades, it wouldn't matter if you're in EU or not. IMO this whole thing is just another talking point for politicians to keep the pubbies busy away from core fundamental issues. Not discounting the other opinions, but this whole ponzy scheme of printing money just koz' thing is going to blow up one day and it will affect each and everyone of us, doesn't matter you're in US, UK or say Pakistan, tho, last economic crisis of 2007 really didn't affect us much because our govt somehow did one good thing: Banks are Banks and not a gambling and speculating investment house, you keep those things separate. Stock markets now are literally more less, have become dignified casinos. I know, I worked in the industry, I'm qualified specialist in this industry, I quit it and changed my profession because it's rotten to the core and I'd rather not live with it and in it, each and every day.
Edit: mobile, not gonna fix gramner.

[Lysistrata]

EDIT: To address you directly Lys, you have seen what I have said about Donald Trump. I don't want to make this a Trump thread, but it is a nice comparison to draw. Vote Leave have run a disgustingly dishonest campaign, and Grassroots Out and UKIP have run a racist one. Two things I attack Trump for. But unlike Trump, rather than a "make our country great again," they offer all that shit side of politics and only promise a minor spending increase on one specific area. Would you vote for that?

LOL... I thought you said you were keeping it relatively short. I don't know a thing about what's going on there. I don't know what you believe to be "disgustingly dishonest". What I do get from your answer is you believe deep in your soul, that people are all the same, and if anyone talks about differences, they are racist. I also see that you still believe that redistribution of wealth can change the weather. You have a "one world" philosophy... and I don't believe in that fantasy world for one second. People are different. They live different lives, and not everyone is gonna get along and go with your flow. Anytime I have seen people forced together, under the same way of life... it never works out. If the UK does not leave the EU, and find a way to lead... I believe your country will be dragged down with the first nation that collapses... but like I said, I have no skin in the game, and I just want the best for you. Good luck.

[Wolfpacks]

I've not said much on this as I'm not really politically inclined, I'm 49 years old and have only seen what Europe has done over the years or not done as the case maybe, but I have seen the British govt slowly but surely let Europe govern us from afar, yes they say they have full control on what they do or can say, but I remember when we had pounds and ounces not kilos and grams, because of a Europe ruling people where getting fined for not changing their signs. It may seem a little thing but it was very important to the traders at the time, I'm for Brexit, simple reason is I'm fed up of having people who have nothing to do with my country telling us what to do. But after saying all this, it really doesn't matter what I think I have only a short time where my children have the rest of their lives to live with the consequences of this referendum this is a vote for the young. For they are the future.