237 replies to this topic

[ccabal86]

Inside the EU there is a clear vision of a future, a future for our economy, a future for the environment, a future for our influence and place on the world.

(...)

We are also able to by working with other countries massively multiply our clout in the world when it comes to big issues like protecting the environment, standing up to dictators and the conduct of Russia, and working for a better world generally.

I agree with your economic reasoning, but you must be VERY idealistic if you think the above is true. Standing up to Russia and dictators? A clear vision of the future? The EU? Please show me the gates of this parallel dimension, must be a wonderful place and I wish to explore it

[Icewolf]

 

EDIT: To address you directly Lys, you have seen what I have said about Donald Trump. I don't want to make this a Trump thread, but it is a nice comparison to draw. Vote Leave have run a disgustingly dishonest campaign, and Grassroots Out and UKIP have run a racist one. Two things I attack Trump for. But unlike Trump, rather than a "make our country great again," they offer all that shit side of politics and only promise a minor spending increase on one specific area. Would you vote for that?

LOL... I thought you said you were keeping it relatively short. I don't know a thing about what's going on there. I don't know what you believe to be "disgustingly dishonest". What I do get from your answer is you believe deep in your soul, that people are all the same, and if anyone talks about differences, they are racist. I also see that you still believe that redistribution of wealth can change the weather. You have a "one world" philosophy... and I don't believe in that fantasy world for one second. People are different. They live different lives, and not everyone is gonna get along and go with your flow. Anytime I have seen people forced together, under the same way of life... it never works out. If the UK does not leave the EU, and find a way to lead... I believe your country will be dragged down with the first nation that collapses... but like I said, I have no skin in the game, and I just want the best for you. Good luck.

 

I am not sure how you get to that from my posts. 

 

Grassroots Out have been stirring up hatred and fear. That is factual. You can be anti-immigration and not racist/xenophic, and without stoking up hatred and fear. Unfortunately that is not the aproarch that Nigel Farage has taken. 

 

As for wealth redistribution/socialism, EU law requires all members to have a free market economy. It is written in black and white in the treaties (Article 107 TFEU if you would like a peek). Or put another way, there is a reason that the Socialist Workers Party are desperate for out. 

 

I've not said much on this as I'm not really politically inclined, I'm 49 years old and have only seen what Europe has done over the years or not done as the case maybe, but I have seen the British govt slowly but surely let Europe govern us from afar, yes they say they have full control on what they do or can say, but I remember when we had pounds and ounces not kilos and grams, because of a Europe ruling people where getting fined for not changing their signs. It may seem a little thing but it was very important to the traders at the time, I'm for Brexit, simple reason is I'm fed up of having people who have nothing to do with my country telling us what to do. But after saying all this, it really doesn't matter what I think I have only a short time where my children have the rest of their lives to live with the consequences of this referendum this is a vote for the young. For they are the future.

What if I told you that French market traders still use pounds and ounces, and you can still buy in pounds and ounces. 

 

Its a fundamentally stupid system and the sooner we get metric mainstream the better, but its still there. 

 

Inside the EU there is a clear vision of a future, a future for our economy, a future for the environment, a future for our influence and place on the world.

(...)

We are also able to by working with other countries massively multiply our clout in the world when it comes to big issues like protecting the environment, standing up to dictators and the conduct of Russia, and working for a better world generally.

I agree with your economic reasoning, but you must be VERY idealistic if you think the above is true. Standing up to Russia and dictators? A clear vision of the future? The EU? Please show me the gates of this parallel dimension, must be a wonderful place and I wish to explore it

 

This is the ambition of the EU for 2020. 

 

http://ec.europa.eu/europe2020/index_en.htm

 

Just because our media doesn't talk about it doesn't mean it isn't there. 

[Wolfpacks]

I still can't get my head around metres I prefer feet and inches, miles instead of kilometres, tonnes not kilograms, but I'm old school, it wouldn't surprise me that the French still use it, why would they fine their own people

[ccabal86]

I know all about the pipedream they call the EU2020 strategy. Anyone can make a wishlist, doesn't mean it's going to happen ( it won't).

Edited by ccabal86, 19 June 2016 - 09:27 PM.

[Wolfpacks]

Tbh the more the EU stay out of Britain/England's business the better it will be

[Bill N Ted]

Whichever way you choose, you'll eventually be screwed by the 0.001% politicians.

BnT is right on spot about the whole Fiat ponzy scheme as the main economic policy these days. Om glad there is someone else who shares this opinion. People would have called you crazy conspiracies few years ago. This whole money out of thin air shit is going to blow up on everyone's face one of these decades, it wouldn't matter if you're in EU or not. IMO this whole thing is just another talking point for politicians to keep the pubbies busy away from core fundamental issues. Not discounting the other opinions, but this whole ponzy scheme of printing money just koz' thing is going to blow up one day and it will affect each and everyone of us, doesn't matter you're in US, UK or say Pakistan, tho, last economic crisis of 2007 really didn't affect us much because our govt somehow did one good thing: Banks are Banks and not a gambling and speculating investment house, you keep those things separate. Stock markets now are literally more less, have become dignified casinos. I know, I worked in the industry, I'm qualified specialist in this industry, I quit it and changed my profession because it's rotten to the core and I'd rather not live with it and in it, each and every day.
Edit: mobile, not gonna fix gramner.

 

 

Conspiracy theorist is one of those terms that are thrown out there as a smear, kind of like the SJW/PC Brigade throw out racist, xenophobe, homophobe, other -phobes.  It's basically to shut down any and all arguments before they begin, few will break rank and put up with the slurs - fuck them all I say

 

The US government is 17-19 trillion-ish in the red according to the US Treasury, this does not include unfunded liabilities such as social security and medical care, for which you will get a bigger figure.  The UK since "austerity" having arrived in 2008 national debt has gone from 600 billion to approaching 1.6 trillion, and for what?  Bigger bank bonuses.  

 

If you think that your government is capable of paying back its debt, as is; just skip the rest of my post, its a waste of your time.

 

Ponzi scheme pretty much sums up the current monetary order to me; anyone who thinks that the US, UK or any western nation is going to come good on its debts (ie anything denominated in your local or international currency of choice) is deluded in my opinion, if you own US Treasuries, UK bonds, etc I wish you all the best.  There is no way the western world can repay its debt; on the horizon looms a few options all politically unpalatable but even politicians cannot hide from reality forever - default, devalue, inflate or a combination.  Governments have been devaluing since 2008 via Quantitative Easing (ie money printing), in order to bring about inflation; who does inflation serve?  Debtors, and it punishes savers as the purchasing power of their savings are eroded.  Who's the biggest debtor in town? Uncle Sam / your respective government who are actively trying to inflate away your savings.

 

Industrial growth is flat lining, the banks are on the chopping block again due to global deflation in commodities and oil, without mentioning a number of other issues.  Introduction of zero or near zero percent interest rates will kill whats left of bank profitability other than gambling on the stock markets - if none of you have checked out the markets in 2015-2016 its worth a look, a lot of investors are getting burnt, your pension funds are loosing money on the markets or are earning nothing, maybe even PAYING to buy debt of a bankrupt in all but name AAA rated government bond....  Bailing out the banks put huge holes in government finances, when you see a QE-4 program understand that QE-5, QE-6 ad infinitum is just around the corner, when it got to QE-2 alarm bells should have rung.

 

Get the fuck out of fiat currency; a wise man (George Bush Junior )  once said "This sucker is going down".

 

If something as international and important as Libor can be rigged, you must be nuts not to think that your stocks are not rigged.  Fiat needs to burn, our pensions need to burn, our social security needs to burn; all in the cleansing fire of Mr Market being allowed to wander free upon the land and determine prices as he has been prevented doing for decades by the central banks of the world.  Fiat really corrupts, it has corrupted everything and it needs to die.  

 

If this sounds far fetched and I could be full of shit; continue with your lives, continue sticking your money in the bank.  Its safe 

 

So to the topic at hand, BREXIT could save us a few billion, it could cost us a few billion.  In the grand scheme of things it counts for naught in my opinion, its a red herring; its more a case of do you want to become a minority in your own country and be ruled from a foreign land?  

 

I am not voting to be a cuck.

 

Cue outraged cognitive dissidence laden posts.

[Shahenshah]

The very very fundamental foundation of paper currency is you print money essentially against value creation. What you have going at the moment is you are printing money against money. You create bad debts, to service those debts, you create money hence you-tell,-people that govts don't default, keep buying the t-bills.

China was in a good shape economically, however over the last 2 years, they've pretty much screwed themselves too with all the money creation.

There is currently, no fundamentally solid national economy, I don't know honestly about Germans are doing, gotta look into that.

[Theophilos]

I've not said much on this as I'm not really politically inclined, I'm 49 years old and have only seen what Europe has done over the years or not done as the case maybe, but I have seen the British govt slowly but surely let Europe govern us from afar, yes they say they have full control on what they do or can say, but I remember when we had pounds and ounces not kilos and grams, because of a Europe ruling people where getting fined for not changing their signs. It may seem a little thing but it was very important to the traders at the time, I'm for Brexit, simple reason is I'm fed up of having people who have nothing to do with my country telling us what to do. But after saying all this, it really doesn't matter what I think I have only a short time where my children have the rest of their lives to live with the consequences of this referendum this is a vote for the young. For they are the future.

 

 

 

The
exclusive competence of the EU islimited to the following: -customs
union -the establishing of the competition rules necessary for the
functioning of the internal market -monetary policy for the member
states whose currency is the euro -conservation of marine biological
resources under the common fisheries policy -common commercial policy
-concluding international agreements (subject to certain conditions)

 

Having that in mind, saying that anyone is governed from afar is not in fact the case. Least of all for the UK which is guaranted a number of abrogations from primary law of the EU.

 

Edit: urgh formatting >.<

[onbekende]

Well most of the EU regulations will still be somewhat mandatory upheld in a seperate UK, see Norway/Switzerland. Both sides are just scaremongering eachothers position while neither is giving any insight in the "the day after tomorrow" part. You can just as easely let the first born on the day of the election mke it decide who wins, but then again both sides will probably argue over who gets which gender... >_>

 

And I always enjoyed the "they can't rule us cause they don't know us" mentality. I find the need to ask such people about from which "level" this "us vs them" mentality kicks in. On a scale of "my own hair" till "world wide everyone".

[ccabal86]

Useful website to browse: http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/

[Finster Baby]

I see the polls are pretty tight. But wasn't this also the case when Scotland voted on independence from the UK, and then they voted to stay?

This might be interesting to say the least. This yank still doesn't have a handle on which side actually makes more sense, so I'll just watch.

[Niels]

I see the polls are pretty tight. But wasn't this also the case when Scotland voted on independence from the UK, and then they voted to stay?

This might be interesting to say the least. This yank still doesn't have a handle on which side actually makes more sense, so I'll just watch.

 

Indeed, polling before the Scottish independence referendum showed it competitive, but with a 2-5% advantage for "No."  Then the vote came and "No" won by 10 percentage points.

Should the same dynamic unfold in this referendum, we might expect people to vote cautiously for the status quo (i.e. "Remain").

[brandonman]

I can't wait to see how this takes shape tomorrow. I've always been a Leave proponent, despite being a distant American observer, al beit, with some Brit friends. Good luck tomorrow!

[SeaBeeGipson]

Aren't yall in Britain voting for this today?

[Eva999]

Aren't yall in Britain voting for this today?

Polls closed like 5.5 hours ago, votes are being counted

[Niels]

Aren't yall in Britain voting for this today?

 

Time Zones! How do they work? 

 

 

Right now, with 21M votes counted, and "Leave" ahead by 600k, seems likely that "Leave" will win.

Certainly the international investment and currency markets think so: the British Pound has lost 8% of its value relative to the US Dollar in a matter of hours.

[ccabal86]

Leave won. Interesting times. The question is, will the whole house of cards come crashing down?

[onbekende]

Some notes from me:

 

-BYE , as special needs member it might be easier you being away from the table >_>

 

- I am usually all for a mandatory majority in these kind of things (aka +50% of total eligable voters), but seeing as more people polled yesterday then normally vote in elections, kinda a moot point

 

- Scotland is no surprise, I hear its even 2-1 votes in favour of remaining, wonder if UK will still have Scotland in 2 years.

 

- Even funnier is Northern Ireland, after the EU "facilitating" the peace process with millions$$ for Northern Ireland, Sinn Fein is now calling to unify with Ireland proper, guess the EU IS a force of peace in Europe

 

- Gibraltar for independence!

 

- Its another city vs towns vote it seems, always nice to see that happen

 

- I demand Boris to be top negotiator with the EU, accompanied with Farage (he will lose his job anyway), we start the EEA bidding process at 350 million €/week (cause you fellows love that number).

 

- What is this, only like 250k of over 5M expat voters went to vote? I can understand ignoring the expats that were outside the UK for 10-20y, but still, that is an awefully small number of voters.

[Lysistrata]

I just got home... trying to find something to explain this and not sound like I'm too happy about it...

[ccabal86]

Some notes from me:

 

-BYE , as special needs member it might be easier you being away from the table >_>

 

- I am usually all for a mandatory majority in these kind of things (aka +50% of total eligable voters), but seeing as more people polled yesterday then normally vote in elections, kinda a moot point

 

- Scotland is no surprise, I hear its even 2-1 votes in favour of remaining, wonder if UK will still have Scotland in 2 years.

 

- Even funnier is Northern Ireland, after the EU "facilitating" the peace process with millions$$ for Northern Ireland, Sinn Fein is now calling to unify with Ireland proper, guess the EU IS a force of peace in Europe

 

- Gibraltar for independence!

 

- Its another city vs towns vote it seems, always nice to see that happen

 

- I demand Boris to be top negotiator with the EU, accompanied with Farage (he will lose his job anyway), we start the EEA bidding process at 350 million €/week (cause you fellows love that number).

 

- What is this, only like 250k of over 5M expat voters went to vote? I can understand ignoring the expats that were outside the UK for 10-20y, but still, that is an awefully small number of voters.

 

Your tone is a good example for why so many Europeans hate the EU. I just want you to remember that when the whole thinng comes crashing down.