894 replies to this topic

[Falzis]

But couldn't the mafia role claim as the Doc as well?

VOTE COUNT
Kaziocore (3): Martino, CanucksDynasty, Aquinas
Falzis (2): KevinH, Theophilos
Sir Jesus (1): Electric Mango

Not Voting (4): Nerau, Sir Jesus, Kaziocore, Falzis

- Nerau still needs replacing, I have no-one lined up, they're all busy. Anyone knows someone / anyone dead wants to do it, shoot me off a PM.

Edited by molestargazer, 13 July 2009 - 12:44 PM.

[Kaziocore]

Yes he could.

[KevinH]

I thought of the idea because we played a game in which KevinH came out and role claimed he was the cop?/detective? Anyway he had a power role and came out early and role claimed. It was a brilliant move that ended up saving the town and getting us a win over the mafia. (I was the doc and sacrificed my life protecting him that night) Kevin, back me up here.

I'll back you up.

Since there was a weak doc that knew something, there is probably a strong doc that knows something, too.
If there is another cop or power role that could use protection, I could see a role claim asking for protection.

However, in this game, at this point in time, I don't think a role claim is in order. The scum know whom the townies are. They don't know the specific roles. If they were told that so-and-so is has a power role and wants protection, then they would know not to target that player and instead hit another townie with an increased chance of hitting the strong doc.

If the stong doc knows something and we are about to make a lynching mistake, that could be another case where a role claim would be prudent.

[Martino]

Actually I'm a good candidate for lynching if you people can't find scum right now because 1) i don't contribute too much 2) i'm a noob and you people don't need me. I really screwed up my first game so I think will only live till day 3.

I think it is a bad idea to unvote because of this post. Yes, he might be honest. But keeping him alive just because of this post is not the right way to play it. First of all, we would be giving any newbie scum a free pass to the endgame. Secondly, we would be rewarding poor play. If he is a townie, we want him to defend himself and not roll over when he gets under a little pressure. If you were not going to vote for Kaziocore before this post, then you still shouldn't. However, I find unvoting like Falzis did to be the wrong course of action.

@EM and his roleclaim idea

No, terrible idea. I'm assuming that the information mole was referring to was the definition of what a weak doc is. I suppose it can be derived from that information what the strong doc is. It would, therefore, be unfair to give Narsis a role in this game, as he would have information that the other players do not.

A doc usually does not have any information that is useful to the town, so he should not claim unless he is in direct danger of being lynched. Our doc should certainly not claim in this particular situation. We are stuck with 10 players. An even number of players is always in the disadvantage of the town as it will be game over one day earlier than with an odd number of players. Assuming that there are indeed three scum, then we can afford one more mislynch before losing this game. If we would have been with 11 players, we could have afforded two more mislynches. So what we really need is our doc to correctly guess who will get nightkilled tonight. If he can prevent one kill, we can afford ourselves two instead of just one mislynch.

If the doc claims today, we will die tonight and we will be stuck with an even number of players. So it's certainly not in our advantage if the doc roleclaims. I think EM should have known better. So I will:

unvote

Vote: EM

[Sir Jesus]

I think it is a bad idea to unvote because of this post. Yes, he might be honest. But keeping him alive just because of this post is not the right way to play it. First of all, we would be giving any newbie scum a free pass to the endgame. Secondly, we would be rewarding poor play. If he is a townie, we want him to defend himself and not roll over when he gets under a little pressure. If you were not going to vote for Kaziocore before this post, then you still shouldn't. However, I find unvoting like Falzis did to be the wrong course of action.
.

If the doc claims today, we will die tonight and we will be stuck with an even number of players. So it's certainly not in our advantage if the doc roleclaims. I think EM should have known better. So I will:

unvote

Vote: EM

So do you believe that Kaziocore should be a lynch target? My gut tells me he's pro-town (he is pretty willing to sacrifice himself), and I never feel right about lynching someone not at the top of my scum-list. However, Kaziocore and others have concluded that he will not be that great of help to the town due to his newness. The real question is: is it more beneficial for the town to take him out, or to risk killing a more experienced player in hopes of him being scum? Right now I'm not so sure...

I really don't think that is a viable reason to vote for someone. EM is not advocating that a power-role should reveal themself, he was just opening up the floor for potential strategies.

FOS: Martino for attempting to stifle discussion by voting on those brave enough to speak.



By the way everyone, have you thought about lynching nerau? At this point in the game it seems like he is just as likely as anyone to be scum, and its painfully obvious he will not be contributing to the town during the duration of this game.

vote: nerau

[Electric Mango]

But couldn't the mafia role claim as the Doc as well?

They could but it would be a risky move. The real doc would know they were lying and would call them out. It would then be up to the town to decide who to believe. If the town guessed wrong the first night we would have a guaranteed scum kill the next night.

@ Martino - I know what the normal doctor role is. I know how important it is. But do we know what a Strong Doc is? Do we know what he knows? There is sufficient evidence to believe that this doctor knows more than a normal doc role does.

I never asked him to role claim. I'm just asking the town to explore the possibilities and discuss options.

[Falzis]

So do you believe that Kaziocore should be a lynch target? My gut tells me he's pro-town (he is pretty willing to sacrifice himself), and I never feel right about lynching someone not at the top of my scum-list. However, Kaziocore and others have concluded that he will not be that great of help to the town due to his newness. The real question is: is it more beneficial for the town to take him out, or to risk killing a more experienced player in hopes of him being scum? Right now I'm not so sure...

I really don't think that is a viable reason to vote for someone. EM is not advocating that a power-role should reveal themself, he was just opening up the floor for potential strategies.

FOS: Martino for attempting to stifle discussion by voting on those brave enough to speak.



By the way everyone, have you thought about lynching nerau? At this point in the game it seems like he is just as likely as anyone to be scum, and its painfully obvious he will not be contributing to the town during the duration of this game.

vote: nerau

Just because he's inactive and not contributing doesn't mean he should be the lynch target. Our options now are not to remove people who do not help us but rather remove people who hurt us (ie. scum). The assumption is still more valid that Nerau's role is a vanilla townie given the lack of interest (although I am not of course discounting the fact that he could be scum since he could be the third mafia but wasn't put in mole's storyline since he was inactive and presumably couldn't send an NK order).

[Falzis]

I'm getting bad vibes from EM. Looking back he was also one of the most speculative when it came to power roles. Now he's gone to the extent of offering the idea of an early role claim, which he has analyzed by himself to be more costly than beneficial. I think discussion is good but opening it today is premature.

[Falzis]

I think it is a bad idea to unvote because of this post. Yes, he might be honest. But keeping him alive just because of this post is not the right way to play it. First of all, we would be giving any newbie scum a free pass to the endgame. Secondly, we would be rewarding poor play. If he is a townie, we want him to defend himself and not roll over when he gets under a little pressure. If you were not going to vote for Kaziocore before this post, then you still shouldn't. However, I find unvoting like Falzis did to be the wrong course of action.

So why did you unvote for Kaziocore? Why is EM's dangerous discussion of early roleclaiming more scummy than your previous reasons and aforementioned ones for Kaziocore?

[Aquinas]

I'm removing my lynch for Kaziocore.

UNVOTE

This is because of some holes in my own reasoning. I concluded that because I could not understand the killing pattern of the mafia, the mafia could not know either. However, Kaziocore is obviously not alone. Duh. That was just dumb I didn't put that together before. Further, if I were scum I would be telling Kaziocore what to say so that I could get his neck out there rather than mine. Thats not happening. Kaziocore isn't doing the mafia any good right now. If he were mafia I think he would have more to say because he was being pumped intelligence. I also think his admission of ignorance is genuine and I'm believing it at this point. He sacrificed himself and that is noble but, looking at the numbers we have left a sacrifice is not what we need. We need to find scum, a sacrifice and killing Kaziocore will not grant us much new information as far as I can see. Martino, I understand your point. However, as you go on to say the numbers are not in our favor. Seeing as I think Kaziocore is townie and we're on a loosing streak lynching so far, accepting his sacrifice is not the best option. I'm not giving him a free pass I'm just not lynching him without evidence.

As for ElectricMango. I don't think I was thinking clearly before. I don't find your justifications so far up to par. It may seem weak to be so wishy washy but, I'm confident in saying, "what are you thinking?" I just don't get it, nor do a lot of us. I really think there are way to many holes in this idea for it to be plausible. Your defense thus far has boiled down to claiming

I never asked him to role claim. I'm just asking the town to explore the possibilities and discuss options.

So, lets hear your position on this strategy then? Do you really condone it? Are you against it and just bringing it up? Pick a side, we're at war. You must weigh in on this, you can't get away with just bringing it up and not having an opinion. You're smart enough to see through all the pitfalls of the idea and I will hold you to that standard. What was your rationale for bringing this up and it better be better than

I never asked him to role claim. I'm just asking the town to explore the possibilities and discuss options.

[Aquinas]

FOS Electric Mango

[Falzis]

Sir Jesus (for his vote on Nerau), Electric Mango (for his role fishes) and Aquinas (for too many flip flopped votes) are rubbing me off. Urgh this is hard, I pegged them as townies before.

But EM looks very very suspicious. I hope he is scum who slipped in trying to know more about the "Strong" Doc.

[CanucksDynasty]

So do you believe that Kaziocore should be a lynch target? My gut tells me he's pro-town (he is pretty willing to sacrifice himself), and I never feel right about lynching someone not at the top of my scum-list. However, Kaziocore and others have concluded that he will not be that great of help to the town due to his newness. The real question is: is it more beneficial for the town to take him out, or to risk killing a more experienced player in hopes of him being scum? Right now I'm not so sure...

I really don't think that is a viable reason to vote for someone. EM is not advocating that a power-role should reveal themself, he was just opening up the floor for potential strategies.

FOS: Martino for attempting to stifle discussion by voting on those brave enough to speak.



By the way everyone, have you thought about lynching nerau? At this point in the game it seems like he is just as likely as anyone to be scum, and its painfully obvious he will not be contributing to the town during the duration of this game.

vote: nerau

We need to find scum not lynch inactives.
What other reasons do you have for lynching Nerau?

FOS: SJ

[CanucksDynasty]

They could but it would be a risky move. The real doc would know they were lying and would call them out. It would then be up to the town to decide who to believe. If the town guessed wrong the first night we would have a guaranteed scum kill the next night.

@ Martino - I know what the normal doctor role is. I know how important it is. But do we know what a Strong Doc is? Do we know what he knows? There is sufficient evidence to believe that this doctor knows more than a normal doc role does.

I never asked him to role claim. I'm just asking the town to explore the possibilities and discuss options.

Wow...I don't even know where to begin.
EM...your post/suggestion...put up big warning signs for me.

Out-of-box thinking is OK...but really...what did you think a strategy of role-claiming would accomplish?

Either....
1) You're mafia that made a HUGE mistake.
or
2) You're townie that posted something out-of-the-box and getting heat from it.

[CanucksDynasty]

I understand the votes on Kaziocore and I don't cast any suspicion on those that have voted for him, however, I am getting a different read on him. I tend to agree more with what KevinH had to say. I credit his lack of posting often based off his inexperience with this game, not because he's scum. He said that he signed up to play this game because he thought it was more of a spam based game vs a critically thinking one.

Also if I were Kaziocore and I were scum, I would have my vote on Falzis right now. As it's shaping up it's going to be between Kaziocore and Falzis, with Kaziocore having more votes as it stands now. Kaziocore is 1 out of only 3 active players yet to vote. If he were scum I highly believe that he would have voted for Falzis to save his own skin. Instead Kaziocore has basically offered himself up as our next lynch candidate.

All in all, I would say these are pretty good reasons to believe that Kaziocore is a townie, not scum.

Perhaps he's received guidance from his scum buddies to precisely do nothing that would incur further suspicion. Maybe even offering to be lynched in order to be viewed favourable.

You coming to his defence is stange indeed.

[CanucksDynasty]

I'm not pushing for the idea.

I listed the pro's and con's fairly.

I'm asking for peoples opinions.

I'm presenting things to consider that a lot of people may not have thought of.

It's good to cover all of you basis and think outside the box for any advantage.

I thought of the idea because we played a game in which KevinH came out and role claimed he was the cop?/detective? Anyway he had a power role and came out early and role claimed. It was a brilliant move that ended up saving the town and getting us a win over the mafia. (I was the doc and sacrificed my life protecting him that night) Kevin, back me up here.

I'm just saying that sometimes it's best to role claim early if it is in the best interest of the town. Maybe our "strong doc" is a new player who would not have thought of this on his own. Maybe he knows the identity of two other townies. In that case we would know that there were 3 definite townies and could greatly increase our chances of winning.

I've never heard of a "weak doc" role or a "strong doc" role so I don't know what kind of powers or information they have. I'm just saying that in certain situations it may be in the towns best interest to role claim.

For the STRONG Doc to role-claim right now serves no purpose. Since Docs can't protect themselves (at least so far as I have seen/played). It's a guaranteeed NK to off the Doc. It only reduces the chance of lynching a townie by a small margin. Plus your previous scenario with KevinH is not relevant to the specifis of this particular game. KevinH still had (or reasonable presumed) a doc out there to protect him. We don't have the cop and the WEAK doc anymore. So...NO.

[Martino]

So do you believe that Kaziocore should be a lynch target? My gut tells me he's pro-town (he is pretty willing to sacrifice himself), and I never feel right about lynching someone not at the top of my scum-list. However, Kaziocore and others have concluded that he will not be that great of help to the town due to his newness. The real question is: is it more beneficial for the town to take him out, or to risk killing a more experienced player in hopes of him being scum? Right now I'm not so sure...

I certainly believe that Kaziocore should be one of the players considered for a lynch. I believe he has a fair chance of being scum and if he is not, then he hasn't been of much help to the town so far anyway. Also, I disagree that he has a higher chance of being pro town because he is willing to self sacrifice. I have played a game before where a newbie scum followed the same line of play after he couldn't defend himself anyway. Back then the situation was a bit more dire for the newbie scum, but I don't think it is a townie tell that he is willing to sacrifice himself for no added benefit for the town. Of course, if he is not on top of your scumlist, you shouldn't vote him. But I wonder why you decided to vote for Nerau, if it doesn't feel right to vote for someone who isn't on top of your scumlist.

I really don't think that is a viable reason to vote for someone. EM is not advocating that a power-role should reveal themself, he was just opening up the floor for potential strategies.

FOS: Martino for attempting to stifle discussion by voting on those brave enough to speak.

He wanted to discuss a strategy that obviously damages the town. Of course he couldn't come out demanding that the strong doc reveals himself, as that would be seen by all as role fishing. But I still don't like him bringing up a possible strategy that is clearly not in the advantage of the town.

@ Martino - I know what the normal doctor role is. I know how important it is. But do we know what a Strong Doc is? Do we know what he knows? There is sufficient evidence to believe that this doctor knows more than a normal doc role does.

No, we don't know what the strong doc is. But is there really sufficient evidence to believe that he knows more than us? As I said before, I think that the reason that Narsis couldn't replace is because he knows what the weak doc can do. For example, if the weak doc has a 50% chance of saving someone, then Narsis could deduct that the strong doc probably has a higher save percentage.

So why did you unvote for Kaziocore? Why is EM's dangerous discussion of early roleclaiming more scummy than your previous reasons and aforementioned ones for Kaziocore?

In my previous analysis I've also voiced my suspicions about EM. However, I find it unlikely that you and EM are both scum. At that time, I thought that the odds were greater that you were the one who was scum, so I left EM be. However, this move has changed that. I find it unlikely that EM couldn't have concluded himself that this was a very flawed strategy. So that makes rolefishing the most plausible explanation for me. Which puts him on top of my scum list. So in short, I still find Kaziocore suspicious, but I find EM even more suspicious at the moment. Also, I have a few questions for EM:

- When you posted the roleclaim idea, were you in favor or against the roleclaim?

- If you were against, why did you bring up the idea?

- If you were in favor, why didn't you try to convince us of this idea in your post?

[CanucksDynasty]

Haha I missed that one. Ok well I sincerely hope he's not a mafia playing the newbie card.

Unvote

That would leave Electric Mango, Sir Jesus and Aquinas in the sojo lynch camp as my suspects then, plus one between KevinH and Theophilos.

This is freakin hard. EM, SJ and Aquinas gave me townie vibes but ruling out Narsis, Kaziocore (for the meantime) and myself would make one of them most likely to be scum. I'm leaning towards Theophilos versus Kevin but either could be townies who just have the wrong perception of me. Mafia are playing it very well...

From this post...
I gather you are giving Kaziocore a pass.
And you don't suspect Martino, me (CanucksDynasty), and Nerau as possible scum?

[Electric Mango]

So, lets hear your position on this strategy then? Do you really condone it? Are you against it and just bringing it up? Pick a side, we're at war. You must weigh in on this, you can't get away with just bringing it up and not having an opinion. You're smart enough to see through all the pitfalls of the idea and I will hold you to that standard. What was your rationale for bringing this up and it better be better than

I think you and Martino have the same question, I'll get to that in a second.

Perhaps he's received guidance from his scum buddies to precisely do nothing that would incur further suspicion. Maybe even offering to be lynched in order to be viewed favorable.

You coming to his defence is stange indeed.

Coming to someone's defense that I think is a townie is my obligation to the town. If we lynch the wrong person today we will be starting the next day in a big hole. I don't want us to make a mistake. If it's ok to voice our suspicions of others, is it not just as ok to voice our opinions if we think they are innocent. I presented good reasons why I think he has a good chance of being a townie.

- When you posted the roleclaim idea, were you in favor or against the roleclaim?

- If you were against, why did you bring up the idea?

- If you were in favor, why didn't you try to convince us of this idea in your post?

I cannot tell you if I am for it or against it because I don't have all the facts. I will however give you scenarios and what I would do for each.

Strong Doc could be a psychiatrist or something similiar. This could very well be a plausible scenario given our setting, a mental hospital.

A psychiatrist's night action is that he can choose one post to send to Mole. Mole would then tell him if that post is true or not.

Let's say someone posted, "Nerau is scum". The psychiatrist would send that post to Mole and Mole would tell him yes that is true, or no it is not.

If that is what a Strong Doc can do then he could know the alignment of 2 other people, plus himself.

If the town was close to lynching someone the doc knew was innocent then I would support the doc role claiming. This would also greatly help narrow down the list of possible suspects, another reason to support the role claim in this scenario.


Now if the strong doc is just a normal doc who can only protect others at night then I would only support him role claiming when there were 8 people left alive. Since it would be most likely 5 vs 3 a wrong lynch would mean the town would lose. The wrong lynch and a night kill would put it at 3 vs 3 and scum automatically win. This makes 5 vs 3 a do or die situation and the doc should role claim to help narrow the list of suspects down.

Any other situations I would not support the role claim.


For all we know, Kaziocore (sorry for picking on you but you are obviously the newest player) could be the strong doc but not know how to best utilize his role. Having these discussions make it easier for our newer players to learn how to best use their roles.

Again, I never asked the doc to role claim.

[Electric Mango]

Also I would like to point out that the scum are kicking our #$@. They got two of our power roles and a mis-lynch by the town today puts us in a very big hole. If I were scum, I would be more than happy to sit back and play it safe. I wouldn't do anything that could be construed as "role fishing". (which I'm not doing anyway)

I'm trying to think of anything or any angle that can help us win, that's it.