1108 replies to this topic

[Lord MK]

If it was a Cupid, then it would have been a mafia Cupid.
Town Cupid doesn't exist in this setup.

So the scum already know that AbT is a bait.if he had kept shut, then some PRs would have walked right into the trap.
Since he has came out, maybe he is hoping that no townie falls into the trap.

[Yehom]

But that's only true if nobody has visited him yet. If someone did visit him, he just purposely threw at least another person in harms way. Also you completely overlook the fact that he switched stories in that scenario, which you can't in my opinion. You can sugarcoat the story all you want, but at the end of the day Ali made a stupid play. The question is whether it was well-intended or ill-intended. 

[brewersalliance]

The question is whether it was well-intended or ill-intended

 

 

and the only way to know for sure is either lynch ABT or investigate ABT

 

lynching means another townie might die in the process though.  

which is why we should wait to lynch abt until hes investigated.  if you vote to lynch him there is a chance you are voting to lynch two people.  Is that honestly worth the risk?

and to be honest, would it be so bad if there is a town nymphomaniac to role claim and claim they targeted ABT? that way we would know its not the cupid and it would be 100% safe to investigate ABT and we would also know a lynch means that two people would die

[Rhizoctonia]

If it was a Cupid, then it would have been a mafia Cupid.
Town Cupid doesn't exist in this setup.

So the scum already know that AbT is a bait.if he had kept shut, then some PRs would have walked right into the trap.
Since he has came out, maybe he is hoping that no townie falls into the trap.

So are you saying that you know the cupid role lasts all game and not just the night it's used? How do you know this when Mod will not commit to telling all of us? Because that's the only way it may "save" anyone is if it's all game and not just N1. Let alone you don't find it quite interesting he claims something that if all game basically prevents him from being investigated?

I also doubt a cupid would know he is actually targeted thus would not get a message from TW.

@Kevin - your last game had both a cupid and a nympho. Though obviously you and TW mod differently in some aspects, I'm curious, did you inform the Cupid target they had an ability used on them. What about the target of a nympho?
I also doubt a cupid would know he is actually
targeted thus would not get a message from TW


Meant to say a Cupids Target

[Canik]

 

The question is whether it was well-intended or ill-intended

 

 

and the only way to know for sure is either lynch ABT or investigate ABT

 

lynching means another townie might die in the process though.  

which is why we should wait to lynch abt until hes investigated.  if you vote to lynch him there is a chance you are voting to lynch two people.  Is that honestly worth the risk?

and to be honest, would it be so bad if there is a town nymphomaniac to role claim and claim they targeted ABT? that way we would know its not the cupid and it would be 100% safe to investigate ABT and we would also know a lynch means that two people would die

 

 

I like these ideas. Because while Rhizo's arguements do have me feeling more 50/50 on if AbT is scum, I'm still worried we could be wrong and if possible it'd be nice to avoid that. 

[brewersalliance]

If it was a Cupid, then it would have been a mafia Cupid.
Town Cupid doesn't exist in this setup.

 

And you know there is no town cupid how?    Here is what TW said

 

Only the following roles may exist in this game: Ascetic, Bodyguard, Bulletproof, Commuter, Cop, Cupid, Doctor, Enabler, FBI Agent, Flavor Cop, Follower, Framer, Friendly Neighbor, Godfather, Goon, Gunsmith, Hider, Innocent Child, Jack-of-All-Trades, Jailkeeper, Jester, Mafia Encryptor, Mason, Miller, Motion Detector, Neapolitan, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Ninja, Nurse, Nymphomaniac, Role Cop, Roleblocker, Rolestopper, Serial Killer, Strongman, Super Saint, Tailor, Tracker, Traitor, Universal Backup, Vanilla Cop, Vigilante, Vanilla Townie, Vengeful, Voyeur, Watcher, Watchlisted Townie, Wrong Place at the Wrong Time Townie

 

 

No where does it say the Cupid is a mafia cupid.  the only way you could possible know for sure it couldnt be a town cupid and is a mafia cupid is if you are part of the mafia and know its a mafia role, or you are the role cop and you found the person who is the mafia cupid, but if the latter was the case, then you would have told us by now.

vote:  MK

So the scum already know that AbT is a bait.if he had kept shut, then some PRs would have walked right into the trap. Since he has came out, maybe he is hoping that no townie falls into the trap.

 

 

Plus here you are competently disregarding the chance that it is a nymphomaniac and saying it has to be the cupid, almost as if you have insider knowledge.

 

so which is it?  do you have some insider knowledge or is this all guesswork on your part? 

also @TW can we get a vote count? 

[Ali bin Turban]

Rhizo I'm just going to repeat what I've said before. I'm not sure if you don't understand or you're trying to purposefully blur the picture but the string of events was as follow:

 

1. At first I could swear the message I received contained the info I was hit by the Cupid, so I shared that information. Cupid is a mafia role (it's useless for the town) - therefore mafia knew I was hit. That means speaking out in public gives mafia no benefit - they already know what they've done, don't they?

 

I believe in this scenario it was the best option for the town to share the information. If you have other view on that matter go ahead and explain us, how in this scenario my coming out and sharing the info, that was already available to mafia was jeopardizing lives of townies, that are possibly connected to me.

 

 

2. KevinH votes on me and you come right after him telling its safer to kill me right now. Your only argument is that I might not be verifiable if the Cupid effect lasts for the whole game and can result in a chain killing. That's a very big if. Also you didn't put a thought in what could happen if I did not inform the town and they would investigate me not knowing they're falling into a trap.

 

Again, please tell us how at this point I'm hypocritical when saying you don't care about possible townies lives? Because I shared the info I though was already available to the mafia?

 

3. Now is the moment I being asked how did I know I was hit by the Cupid. I thought "It's obvious, because it's in my message" and went to read it again. And then it turned out it wasn't there. At this point it was obvious I've made a huge mistake and in fact I could jeopardize townies lives, because I could as well be targeted by a Nymphomaniac and that's the knowledge mafia didn't had.

 

 

At this moment you're blurring the picture and make it as If I stated from the very beginning, I could be hit by either Cupid or Nyphomaniac. The first part of the day revolved around me being hit by Cupid. You were not questioning that and you were voting on me with the assumption I was in fact hit by the Cupid. And with that assumption in mind, you were OK with the possibility of killing other peoples. Now when we know more, when there's Nymphomaniac possibility being discussed, you're acting as if that knowledge was available from the very beginning.

 

Also that fragment is telling a lot:

 

How coming forth there is a cupid help? So if he was targeted by cupid last night, what does him coming out help? If someone used their ability on ABT the same night, it doesn't change the fact they're now connected? Who cares to know there is a possible cupid, town can't change that, nor change if they used an ability on AbT last night. It's pointless except for AbT to use for his own benefit.

 

May I remind you that your primary reason to lynch me was that the Cupid effect may last for the whole game? But now you say it's pointless to warn the town? Do you even believe in the version that was your reason to cast a vote on me?

 

 

 

What's funny is you trying to save yourself by using the fear of someone else could be killed as some justified reason to keep you alive. Is that your excuse you're going to use all game long, where anytime you're in the hot seat resort back to well killing me could kill more then me?

 

Nah. My plan is to find scum and lynch them. It's the best way of confirming that I'm indeed a town.

[Ali bin Turban]

and to be honest, would it be so bad if there is a town nymphomaniac to role claim and claim they targeted ABT? that way we would know its not the cupid and it would be 100% safe to investigate ABT and we would also know a lynch means that two people would die

 

There are following implications if there's a nymphomaniac and he's stepping out:

 

1. Everyone knows I'm indeed telling truth.

2. Instead of 1 person that can result in +1 town deaths there are 2. One person can be easily protected and mafia risks scoring no kills if they target him (unless they got a strongman). With two, there's 50% chance so it's more tempting to try.

3. If there's one I'm sure he'll reveal himself if I'll be at risk of getting lynched. It's still better for the town when 2 people are killed at night than if 2 people are lynched + someone else is killed at night.

[Mandarijn]

I think Ali is telling the truth.

It was indeed the best option to come out at the moment he thought he was targetted by a Cupid, I've yet to see someone give a legit argument why it wouldn't be. And it doesn't matter if someone else targetted him or not during the night, mafia already knows that they targetted Ali and can kill him at night whenever they want...

Missing the Cupid part was a honest mistake I think, he immediately came out that he made a mistake when someone questioned that part, before that he was just looking where the discussion was going, what is exactly what I would do if I dropped a bomb like that.

 

Whether or not he was targetted by a Cupid or Nymph, it just doesn't make sense to lynch him. To me we would be helping out the Mafia. Now Mafia knows this information (or maybe they already knew of course) it's up to them to decide if they want to kill him at night or not. Other townie PR roles might be able to protect him (or not, who knows ). And if TW can tell us if the Cupid effect would last all game or not, then Ali can also be investigated (although I'm 99% sure he's town). If the Mafia have a watcher, then that's a HUGE problem.

 

@The Warrior : How the Cupid works isn't clear on the Greater Mafia Idea. Can you confirm (hypotheticly speaking that a Cupid is in the game) whether or not the Cupid effect will last all game or just for N1?

[KevinH]

​@KevinH - why not no-lynch today?

It's Day 2 and somebody knows somethin'.
The town can't win without eventually lynching.
That said, I do believe one possible course of action is to no-lynch again; tomorrow we'll have even more information.
 
 

@Kevin - your last game had both a cupid and a nympho. Though obviously you and TW mod differently in some aspects, I'm curious, did you inform the Cupid target they had an ability used on them. What about the target of a nympho?
I also doubt a cupid would know he is actually targeted thus would not get a message from TW

I would not inform a Cupid target if there was not a Lover bond created.
If a Lover bond is created, I think all those involved need to be told they are Lovers, but not whether it came from a Cupid or a Nymphomaniac (or anything else).

In the last game, the Mafia Cupid died early and people assumed that if there were Lovers it was because of him.
In fact, he targeted the Nymphomaniac and nobody else did Night 1 so it had no effect (I was using the Night 1 only model).
The Lovers got created by Nymphomaniac action but they stayed alive the whole game.

[SeaBeeGipson]

Vote: Rafay

Seems like it's just the same few talking today. Let's poke around and get others opinions on what's going on

[Kitkat16]

I lean towards AbT telling the truth, although I'm not 100% certain. I think it makes the most sense of the facts. Simply because someone makes a weird move doesn't mean they're scum. Sure, he could have made that post so that people would be too scared to lynch him, but that seems pretty friggin ballsy to me. 

[Lord MK]

But that's only true if nobody has visited him yet. If someone did visit him, he just purposely threw at least another person in harms way. Also you completely overlook the fact that he switched stories in that scenario, which you can't in my opinion. You can sugarcoat the story all you want, but at the end of the day Ali made a stupid play. The question is whether it was well-intended or ill-intended.

Even if someone did visit him, what difference does it makes?
The ones who visited him on N1 are not going to come out.
Scum would anyways strike AbT out on N3. (If they were bright)
So even if he didn't, the result will be collateral town deaths.

The question is whether it was well-intended or ill-intended

and the only way to know for sure is either lynch ABT or investigate ABT

lynching means another townie might die in the process though.

which is why we should wait to lynch abt until hes investigated. if you vote to lynch him there is a chance you are voting to lynch two people. Is that honestly worth the risk?

and to be honest, would it be so bad if there is a town nymphomaniac to role claim and claim they targeted ABT? that way we would know its not the cupid and it would be 100% safe to investigate ABT and we would also know a lynch means that two people would die

On that last idea, are you serious?
If the Nymphomaniac came out, then scum needs to hit one and two is down.

If it was a Cupid, then it would have been a mafia Cupid.
Town Cupid doesn't exist in this setup.

And you know there is no town cupid how? Here is what TW said

Only the following roles may exist in this game: Ascetic, Bodyguard, Bulletproof, Commuter, Cop, Cupid, Doctor, Enabler, FBI Agent, Flavor Cop, Follower, Framer, Friendly Neighbor, Godfather, Goon, Gunsmith, Hider, Innocent Child, Jack-of-All-Trades, Jailkeeper, Jester, Mafia Encryptor, Mason, Miller, Motion Detector, Neapolitan, Neighbor, Neighborizer, Ninja, Nurse, Nymphomaniac, Role Cop, Roleblocker, Rolestopper, Serial Killer, Strongman, Super Saint, Tailor, Tracker, Traitor, Universal Backup, Vanilla Cop, Vigilante, Vanilla Townie, Vengeful, Voyeur, Watcher, Watchlisted Townie, Wrong Place at the Wrong Time Townie

No where does it say the Cupid is a mafia cupid. the only way you could possible know for sure it couldnt be a town cupid and is a mafia cupid is if you are part of the mafia and know its a mafia role, or you are the role cop and you found the person who is the mafia cupid, but if the latter was the case, then you would have told us by now.

vote: MK

So the scum already know that AbT is a bait.if he had kept shut, then some PRs would have walked right into the trap. Since he has came out, maybe he is hoping that no townie falls into the trap.

Plus here you are competently disregarding the chance that it is a nymphomaniac and saying it has to be the cupid, almost as if you have insider knowledge.

so which is it? do you have some insider knowledge or is this all guesswork on your part?

also @TW can we get a vote count?

Go and look up Greater Idea Mafia on mafiascum wiki.
They have a very neat arrangement of roles so according to that, there can only be Mafia Cupid.
And TW already said that this game to be interpreted using that base.

[Lachiton]

Bit busy so just glanced through the posts quickly. I will try to read them more thoroughly once I have time.

 

But whatever I can gather from everyone as well as AbT's defense, I believe he is town. I already said before that if AbT is town and he was indeed struck by Cupid, announcing it to the town makes sense. If you think about it, Cupid as a town role sounds odd, especially if town decides to target randomly on N1. Cupid, if it exists has to be mafia role. In the same way Nymphomaniac is useless with mafia so it will always be town role.

 

I am just wondering what's the message from TW was to AbT that he immediately thought it to be cupid targeted him. Maybe it was something along the lines of "you have been struck with lover's effect" or something similar. So if that's the case then I can totally get why AbT immediately thought of it to be cupid, though in reality it could have been nymphomaniac.

 

Also anyone find it weird that Samus and DarkFox completely skirted the issue and were in a different world arguing over petty things. I think this needs to be called out as the day is gonna end soon and we have not yet reached anywhere close to a lynch.

 

Vote: Samus

[brewersalliance]

99% sure on town seems really high. And why would the nymphomaniac coming out be a bad thing? They don't have to say who else they made Ali a lover with, so only Ali would still be in danger of causing a double kill

[Lachiton]

99% sure on town seems really high. And why would the nymphomaniac coming out be a bad thing? They don't have to say who else they made Ali a lover with, so only Ali would still be in danger of causing a double kill

 

Bad thing is that mafia knows to kill both they can target either one of them, rendering a town PR with protection role useless, if they decide to protect AbT. Also, though nymphomaniac coming out helps to clear the air whether AbT was targeted or not, it still doesn't 100% guarantee that AbT is town. So I see the risk outweigh more than the benefits at this moment.

[brewersalliance]

I just read the nymphomaniac role. Let's not have them come out the nymphomaniac makes them a lover with themselves, I thought they picked two people. Oops. So yeah now I see MKs point. That would be a very bad idea. So if you're the nympho don't come out of the closet

[Rhizoctonia]

1. At first I could swear the message I received contained the info I was hit by the Cupid, so I shared that information. Cupid is a mafia role (it's useless for the town) - therefore mafia knew I was hit. That means speaking out in public gives mafia no benefit - they already know what they've done, don't they?

 

I believe in this scenario it was the best option for the town to share the information. If you have other view on that matter go ahead and explain us, how in this scenario my coming out and sharing the info, that was already available to mafia was jeopardizing lives of townies, that are possibly connected to me.

 

 

2. KevinH votes on me and you come right after him telling its safer to kill me right now. Your only argument is that I might not be verifiable if the Cupid effect lasts for the whole game and can result in a chain killing. That's a very big if. Also you didn't put a thought in what could happen if I did not inform the town and they would investigate me not knowing they're falling into a trap.

 

Again, please tell us how at this point I'm hypocritical when saying you don't care about possible townies lives? Because I shared the info I though was already available to the mafia?

 

3. Now is the moment I being asked how did I know I was hit by the Cupid. I thought "It's obvious, because it's in my message" and went to read it again. And then it turned out it wasn't there. At this point it was obvious I've made a huge mistake and in fact I could jeopardize townies lives, because I could as well be targeted by a Nymphomaniac and that's the knowledge mafia didn't had.

 

 

At this moment you're blurring the picture and make it as If I stated from the very beginning, I could be hit by either Cupid or Nyphomaniac. The first part of the day revolved around me being hit by Cupid. You were not questioning that and you were voting on me with the assumption I was in fact hit by the Cupid. And with that assumption in mind, you were OK with the possibility of killing other peoples. Now when we know more, when there's Nymphomaniac possibility being discussed, you're acting as if that knowledge was available from the very beginning.

 

 

Again, this is all to believe that you simply screwed up reading.  I don't get how 1 reads the word cupid when it's not there, or otherwise assume you were hit by it by the message you were sent by TW.  Again, we're to believe you just read cupid out of thin air, but have yet to reveal what the message actually sent said that TW sent you where one can read the message and maybe see how you came to such a conclusion that it was cupid from what else it actually sent to you.  You brought up Kitkat and not being able to read, his mess up was be added 1 shot to his bulletproof townie, instead of just bullet proof townie....big difference then reading a word Cupid that doesn't exist in the PM.

Let alone, you announce this and then disappear.  Then you post, going to wait to see other peoples responses.  Through this whole time, people questioned if in fact a target of Cupid would be told that they were targeted by a cupid by PM, and some questioning your message.  Thus giving you time while you refrained from posting to actually ask the Mod if in fact a Cupid target would, or scum partners told you to vary such story.
 

If you're making all this shit up, who does it help coming forward?  It helps you, because if people believe you were hit by Cupid then they can safely assume you're town, as well as be afraid to lynch you because of the possibility killing you kills others.  Again, you want to keep using the fear of connected townies as a crutch.

 

2. KevinH votes on me and you come right after him telling its safer to kill me right now. Your only argument is that I might not be verifiable if the Cupid effect lasts for the whole game and can result in a chain killing. That's a very big if. Also you didn't put a thought in what could happen if I did not inform the town and they would investigate me not knowing they're falling into a trap.

 

Again, please tell us how at this point I'm hypocritical when saying you don't care about possible townies lives? Because I shared the info I though was already available to the mafia?

 

You act as if I jumped on after Kevin, for which I made my position quite clear prior to Kevin's Vote that I am apt to vote you (he quoted), and I don't know how many times I have brought up asking TW, or rehashing that we don't know if it's game long or N1 only.  TW had posted after Kevin's vote a vote count, for which he refrained from once again answering my question, thus at this point it's safe to say he's unwilling to flat out answer it.  Thus we will go all game long not knowing if we can actually check you or not without becoming lovers.  Not fine with that, especially if in fact you're scum and we get down to where we don't have any mislynches or low mislynches and you again use this as a fear tactic for people to not lynch you because they're afraid if it knocks on more then you, town loses.  So yes, I rather risk a mislynch now if we're unable to check on you all game cause you've been possibly hit by cupid and it's a game long effect then when it's down to lower numbers and we just have to believe you're town and your story.

What's anymore of a big If, then you assuming someone targeted you.  You don't know if anyone targeted you if you were hit by cupid, so killing you may merely just kill you.  You want to talk about what if's and how big they're, I don't believe killing you is likely to kill many others if any.  But you want continue with this crutch.

No, what I find hypocritical is that fact you want to act as if we don't care, but you yourself refused to read your message as you claim correctly and came out with information for which may not be completely true.  You want to use the excuse you didn't read it right, fine, maybe you did, but for someone who possibly screwed up letting Mafia know there might be a Nympho, I don't think you should be throwing any stones.  

 

At this moment you're blurring the picture and make it as If I stated from the very beginning, I could be hit by either Cupid or Nyphomaniac. The first part of the day revolved around me being hit by Cupid. You were not questioning that and you were voting on me with the assumption I was in fact hit by the Cupid. And with that assumption in mind, you were OK with the possibility of killing other peoples. Now when we know more, when there's Nymphomaniac possibility being discussed, you're acting as if that knowledge was available from the very beginning.

 

How am I acting like it was available from the beginning. Where did I say you stated it from the very beginning.  No what I'm saying is your inability to read a message and make sure you read it right before coming forth with information and making sure what you reveal would not have any negative possible effect to town.  Usually if I think of posting some information, I look at all scenarios that could come with it, and think if the positives out weigh the negative. You again are using the excuse you read wrong, ok, but it doesn't refute you possibly revealed harmful information to Mafia.  And to be honest, that knowledge was available from the very beginning, you're the one who provided wrong information when you had all the right information in your PM.  

And to your other part on voting you, I already stated it above why I think as I do with lynching you.  You can try to show it however you want, but merely you continue to want to use the big "IF" that if you were hit by cupid someone even visited you, and allow you to continue to live basing it off your changing story of reading cupid and it didn't say cupid.  You refuse the acknowledge the idea of people being fearful to check on you because they may become lovers, and how if you were either town/or not the person in question, you would be ok with taking someone for their word?  You'd be ok with allowing said person to continue to survive day in and day out simply believing their story, for which you changed stating you read wrong, because they can't be checked in fear of being lovers, and they can't be killed because it may kill another person?  I don't believe you would, and you know damn well it's better to make such a mislynch early on then later in game, just like people have tendency to vote inactive off or VT claims.  Because it's obvious you're going to use "fear of killing others" as a crutch as you have shown a few times already.

[Rhizoctonia]

I think Ali is telling the truth.

It was indeed the best option to come out at the moment he thought he was targetted by a Cupid, I've yet to see someone give a legit argument why it wouldn't be. And it doesn't matter if someone else targetted him or not during the night, mafia already knows that they targetted Ali and can kill him at night whenever they want...

Missing the Cupid part was a honest mistake I think, he immediately came out that he made a mistake when someone questioned that part, before that he was just looking where the discussion was going, what is exactly what I would do if I dropped a bomb like that.

 

Whether or not he was targetted by a Cupid or Nymph, it just doesn't make sense to lynch him. To me we would be helping out the Mafia. Now Mafia knows this information (or maybe they already knew of course) it's up to them to decide if they want to kill him at night or not. Other townie PR roles might be able to protect him (or not, who knows ). And if TW can tell us if the Cupid effect would last all game or not, then Ali can also be investigated (although I'm 99% sure he's town). If the Mafia have a watcher, then that's a HUGE problem.

 

@The Warrior : How the Cupid works isn't clear on the Greater Mafia Idea. Can you confirm (hypotheticly speaking that a Cupid is in the game) whether or not the Cupid effect will last all game or just for N1?

 

 

You don't see the problem of using this fear of killing more then 1 as a reason to continue to let him live?  You don't see a problem with not knowing if there is a cupid if it's game long or not so we can actually investigate him if he was in fact hit by cupid?  You don't see a problem with if he was hit with a Nympho, that he very well could be scum and the nympho picked a scum to be lovers with?  You're ok with going all game with having AbT living because of said fear, when it's better to mislynch now then later?

[Rhizoctonia]

I just read the nymphomaniac role. Let's not have them come out the nymphomaniac makes them a lover with themselves, I thought they picked two people. Oops. So yeah now I see MKs point. That would be a very bad idea. So if you're the nympho don't come out of the closet

 

 

Nympho only picks 1.  So if they come out, basically it'll be AbT and said person.  The only benefit we gain from Nympho coming out is we know that AbT wasn't hit by cupid, thus he can be investigated without fear of becoming lovers with him.  With him coming forward though, it doesn't answer if AbT is scum or not, just we know the Nympho is town.  If in fact AbT is town, then you open up two possible targets to hit instead of 1 to get a double kill as we may not have two protective roles to prevent kills on both the same night, like Lach mentioned.  At this point they only have 1 option to get two kills if there's a nymph (the scum know if it was cupid or a nympho) and that's killing AbT.  

 

Curious however if a Doctor protects one and the other is killed, does only 1 die, or would the doctor prevent the death of the one he protected.  @The Warrior want to chime in?

 

If in fact AbT is scum, and the Nympho linked to a scum, then obviously the roleclaimed Nympho would not be killed, since killing the nympho kills one of their own