635 replies to this topic

[lilweirdward]

I do agree with that, it's the only thing that's making me doubt my vote at all. Since Robert was very vocal about his disdain of Tony being allowed to play, it wouldn't have taken much for a savvy scum leader to realize that killing Tony would put a huge target on Robert's back. To be honest, I think it's just as likely that Robert didn't think about the fallout that would come from killing Tony until after the day started and people got upset about it, especially since he clutched so hard to Kevin's wagon so early which feels like a tell like brewers explained, but I can't be 100% sure about that.

[Robert2424]

been super busy but ill read up later
 
for now I want to address this
 

Brewers: it's no secret I believe Brewers dislikes me. Though I enjoy pissing him off I was a Vig to shoot and kill Tony but isn't my style. I personally have believed since the beginning if Brewers was part of the scum team, he'd want to have me killed within the first two nights. But I'm still here. So either.....he's not scum and just a very agressive but ineffective townie, or......he's on the scum team and would rather Lynch me as that may be more of a victory over me somehow. But he didn't come right out the gates either to vote on me D3. And Brewers dosen't care if he's in the spotlight or not. But he has to now be in the scum list as he was on the crappy Kevin wagon and I don't see him going after anyone on the Kevin wagon. As that in a way, will say he was wrong. So in combination he's on here cause he has to be. Maybe a bit of combination of several things. But if Brewers was scum......I could seem him as a partner to LWW. Just saying as an impression they've given me.

 
I dont dislike you robert lol i disliked how you played for roughly a year or two where every single night action you did was targeting me and you basically only voted me.  thats what I didnt like lol  i wasnt on the kevin wagon i started it. lol give me credit
 
Robert is trying hard to make it sound like being on Kevins wagon= scum.... we dont know if a signle scum was even on the wagon.  Robert also instantly tied himself to kevin, when kevin voted tony.  That is a typical scum move/tell- tie yourself to a townie.    and robert is acting like what kevin did was normal town behavior.  Lets be real, kevin randomly role claiming for no reason was not a typical town move.  it was very scummy of him to do so.  Robert keeps calling out the wagon as crappy and stuff, when in reality, kevin being voted made sense for his actions.  only way to know he was town to the degree robert is being is if you are scum.
 
big FoS on robert.  ill go through all the other posts later but robert feels like the most scummy to me and will probably get my vote
 
In before he screams OMGUS

if you don't dislike me, you have a wierd way of showing that. I say that via the impression I get.

Again. The Kevin wagon isn't going to have me give the people on it town points. You might believe it made sense for the town. I disagree with that notion.

  

Sorry, I've been following the game in email but I've had a busy weekend and haven't been able to log on and post. Going to dig up a few old posts that stuck out to me.

I get it, you didn't agree with my reasoning but dosen't make it no reasoning. You want my honest opinion. It was dumb to lynch Kevin. We lost an active townie who I (AGAIN) would of done the same exact thing in his position. If you can't understand that I can't help you. Or maybe skim my posts more.

Wait, so you would have claimed a single action that gave town zero information but implicated yourself in having visited the person who was night killed, then tried to start a lynch train on someone because of a single lol vote, then abandoned it and pushed for no lynch as a last ditch attempt to save yourself? And...that's something that town would have done? Sorry, I just don't buy it at all. I mean clearly Kevin just played badly and then didn't know how to get himself out of his own hole (and even dug it further a few times), but that was extremely not obvious yesterday, and I think it's disingenuous to make it seem like everyone should have figured that out.

Well cant say I am surprised kevin turned out to be town. It is unfortunate people piled on him without giving him a chance to prove himself. I am thinking there is at least 1 if not 2 scum on the kevin wagon. They couldnt afford to give kevin the chance to prove his ability and be a confirmed townie.

This is a dangerous mindset if you're town. Ignoring the fact that a Voyeur is not the easiest role claim for town to prove anyway, he easily could have been a mafia voyeur with a safe claim, so proving his role would not have confirmed him as town. This game is probably a role madness game, and you can bet that scum will try to come up with role claims that make town think they should avoid lynching them. We can't let people off the hook for blatantly scummy actions just because they made a claim that we can't disprove.

LWW starting a wagon on Robert is interesting. If I read this right, you're basing it on the same kind of logic for Velocity - that he was acting with guilty knowledge that Kevin was actually town - but then adding that Tony being killed makes Robert MORE likely because of personality? I don't know Robert enough to judge the merits of whether he's that petty, but that second half feels out-of-game.

It's not personality, it's the fact that he said multiple times in D2 that he thinks Tony should have mod killed or replaced, and complained when he was allowed back in the game. He made it pretty clear that he didn't want Tony to be playing (seemingly for OOC reasons) and I think that makes him more suspicious given that Tony was killed the following night. As everyone has pointed out, there is no real reason that Tony should have been killed - if anything, there were reasons for mafia to keep him alive - so I don't think that Robert's stated motives should be ignored, especially in context of him trying to tie himself to Kevin so hard.

I thought that Kevin had acted scummy in the way he role claimed and then tried analysis on a one vote train from the guy who died, but I also felt that his intentions *were* pro-town and with nobody counter-claiming black widow I had ultimately assumed that he was town, despite his actions throughout the day. Note that I said he was acting scummy, not that I thought he was scum.

This makes no sense to me. How could you tell that he's not scum if you also thought he was acting scummy?

Another person who has been trying to avoid taking sides and staying on the sidelines. The arguments against Velocity can easily fit jazz also, which I pointed out on D2, except he did later vote for kevin. Its possible Velocity and jazz are on the same team and Velocity avoided hammering kevin because he knew his scum buddy has been forced to vote for kevin and they didnt want too many scum on the wagon.

Yeah this is actually a smart observation and I noticed it too, at least in terms of jazzy reluctantly joining the wagon after a bit of pressure to vote.

Probably one of my longest posts in awhile. Hopefully there isn't too many Grammer errors in all of that. I don't believe my thoughts were conjumbled.

They weren't jumbled, but tbh it all felt like faux scum hunting to me. An attempt to seem to be putting a ton of energy into making lists and analyzing play, but in reality, all of the analysis was very superficial, imho. I mean part of your reasoning for suspecting jazzy was that he doesn't have a profile picture, and in your reasoning for darkfox, you just listed a lot of pro town behavior lol. It could just be bad analysis, but it doesn't make me less suspicious of you.

-----------------------

Well, that was Preston levels of a lot of text lol. I'll try to post more actively now that the weekend is over.

  I think your taking my words too far in some cases and not far enough in others. Claiming when Kevin did, yes, his voting, not necessarily. I vote my own way and just don't follow the leader.

his is a dangerous mindset if you're town. Ignoring the fact that a Voyeur is not the easiest role claim for town to prove anyway, he easily could have been a mafia voyeur with a safe claim, so proving his role would not have confirmed him as town. This game is probably a role madness game, and you can bet that scum will try to come up with role claims that make town think they should avoid lynching them. We can't let people off the hook for blatantly scummy actions just because they made a claim that we can't disprove.

 
Voyeur is a very pro-town role to me. Cant say I have played any game where the scum had voyeur ability. It is much more helpful for the townies because a Voyeur can actually confirm or contradict fake claims by townies/scum. But Kevin really played terribly with this role. He not only claimed for pretty much no reason and then put his vote on someone who could not even defend himself at that point, his choice of night target was kind of strange also. A town voyeur should target someone who is likely to get a lot of action on him, instead he chose iSoc who was very inactive. 

  I would agree with this, but isn't fully why.

I do agree with that, it's the only thing that's making me doubt my vote at all. Since Robert was very vocal about his disdain of Tony being allowed to play, it wouldn't have taken much for a savvy scum leader to realize that killing Tony would put a huge target on Robert's back. To be honest, I think it's just as likely that Robert didn't think about the fallout that would come from killing Tony until after the day started and people got upset about it, especially since he clutched so hard to Kevin's wagon so early which feels like a tell like brewers explained, but I can't be 100% sure about that.

I've played Mafia for a long time LWW. If you want to think I shoot from the hip and not care by all means. I put allot of thoughts into any night action I have. Maybe less during N1. If you want to believe I don't put thought into my night action, you can. I just find it funny.

[lilweirdward]

I'm not saying that you killing Tony would have been the result of a complete lack of thought. You were very clear in D2 that you thought Tony should not have been allowed to play, and you at least have a recent history of using night actions to sabotage and even kill players that you don't think should be playing, especially with brewers. It's also possible that you assumed that you wouldn't be suspected for killing Tony after voting for him, or believed that you're good enough that you could explain yourself out of the situation.

In any case, I didn't mean what I said as an insult. You're one of the most experienced players, but even experienced players make mistakes or give scum tells on accident. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible that someone is using your behavior in D2 to frame you, but I also don't think it's necessarily the most plausible explanation either.

[Lyner]

A bit busy so might not be able to fully pay attention to every little details

 

So anyway, because of the bad play by kevin I am not really pushing for hunting scum on the kevin wagon right now, but I am not counting them out as well, it is much more likely that the people who joined on the kevin wagon later is scum than the ones who jumped on kevin early.

 

It is likely that there is at least one scum there, probabilistically speaking

 

Lyner: he's literally all over the place. I firmly believe his skimming and wonder if he even cares about the game. His vote on ISoc 1.0 was so awkward, it's like he an insensitive college saying something about a Co-worker that died last night. His posts are very small compared to most people in the game. I'd be surprised if anyone did not at least have him somewhere on there scum list. He's either Trolling, clueless, or playing the worst scum player ever.

I am still a little bothered about Lyner saying he was pro lynching inactives and then voting for iSocialism 1.0 when he was already dead. Dunno if it was for the lulz or not, just really (dr)strange. Lyner also again reiterated that there is scum on the wagon, which is probably correct but a odd thing to point out right away when one of the wagon was night killed

 

Okay can we move on from this lol it was day one and I was looking at total forum posts to see who's at the bottom of activity. It's early game so I didn't put total effort yet and forgot about him being dead.

 

 

Let's start putting some pressure

Vote: Velocity

[brewersalliance]

My top two scum suspects are Robert and jazzy

How jazzy joined the Kevin wagon to me felt like where scum would be

Jazzy hasn’t been very vocal tho so I’d be okay with lynching either Robert or jazzy but I feel like it has to be one of the two today

I do agree with that, it's the only thing that's making me doubt my vote at all. Since Robert was very vocal about his disdain of Tony being allowed to play, it wouldn't have taken much for a savvy scum leader to realize that killing Tony would put a huge target on Robert's back. To be honest, I think it's just as likely that Robert didn't think about the fallout that would come from killing Tony until after the day started and people got upset about it, especially since he clutched so hard to Kevin's wagon so early which feels like a tell like brewers explained, but I can't be 100% sure about that.

Actually this is a good point with Robert and tony.

I was thinking that it was a dick move to kill tony. Almost felt intentional and vindictive and maybe someone from iron was but hurt about him being allowed to play

Vote robert

[Zacch]

My top two scum suspects are Robert and jazzy

How jazzy joined the Kevin wagon to me felt like where scum would be

Jazzy hasn’t been very vocal tho so I’d be okay with lynching either Robert or jazzy but I feel like it has to be one of the two today

I do agree with that, it's the only thing that's making me doubt my vote at all. Since Robert was very vocal about his disdain of Tony being allowed to play, it wouldn't have taken much for a savvy scum leader to realize that killing Tony would put a huge target on Robert's back. To be honest, I think it's just as likely that Robert didn't think about the fallout that would come from killing Tony until after the day started and people got upset about it, especially since he clutched so hard to Kevin's wagon so early which feels like a tell like brewers explained, but I can't be 100% sure about that.

Actually this is a good point with Robert and tony.

I was thinking that it was a dick move to kill tony. Almost felt intentional and vindictive and maybe someone from iron was but hurt about him being allowed to play

Vote robert

 

 

While I still think Brewers is scum, I have to agree with his assessment of Robert.

 

Unvote

 

Vote: Robert

[Preston]

Good to see people getting active, and it's a bit amusing that I am now apparently an adjective for post length Let's dig into the substance here, and then I'll summarize my thoughts and suspect shortlist at the end.

 

 

As for velocity, he was using a classic, oh he's scummy , but the deadline is so near, so why hammer and bother the mod..

He created a neutral standing ground at the very end.
If he did join Kevin's wagon, no one would have cared.
But his hesitation indicates that he knew that Kevin was not scum.
And he was probably afraid of people like Roberto who tends to jump on Hammerers (which is stupid, hammers are mostly never scum), now he might feared that this would attract attention to him.
Which he wants to avoid.

Aka, he is trying to incognito, not because he's scum, but because he is in a small team, i think 2 members or even SK, cause there's a few in infinity war who was going for their own, so it tracks.

We lynch Velocity, the other scum will start panicking and we will see it in their actions.

Also the night kill actions are particularly on historically low posters.
Which means they are afraid of tracking.
And velocity fits that profile.
He tends to play the least risky option when he is scum

 

Good to see a followup from MK. Much of this summarizes my current thoughts and why Velocity is currently top of my list. I am also bolding/highlighting a portion of MK's post that I think is a really good point - the fact that both kills so far are not on anyone we would have expected matches the idea of scum trying to avoid any sort of observational role. 

 

I remember TW did small mafia team + SK during the Chamber of Secrets game I played, but we have not seen a 2-kill night yet. Unless there is another protective role or bulletproof out there to have blocked the double kill, there's not yet STRONG evidence for a SK. With that said I won the Chamber of Secrets game as a SK by deliberately skipping my first even-night kill, so I can't rule it out either. Especially if Thanos is the SK and is getting powers based on stones collected.

 

 

 

[Jazzy]

 

Another person who has been trying to avoid taking sides and staying on the sidelines. The arguments against Velocity can easily fit jazz also, which I pointed out on D2, except he did later vote for kevin. Its possible Velocity and jazz are on the same team and Velocity avoided hammering kevin because he knew his scum buddy has been forced to vote for kevin and they didnt want too many scum on the wagon.

Per my post, Jazzy is still on my list as well. He has since posted that he intends to catch up on the thread soon - please do so ASAP, your silence isn't helping matters! I also bolded a good point you make - both Velocity and Jazzy were hesitant with their votes. This may have been coincidence (Jazzy claims it is just his style), but if we assume Jazzy is scum then it adds impetus for why Velocity would have wanted to avoid stacking the Kevin wagon.

 

And then Robert chimes in with a surprisingly long and detailed list. Grammar aside, this is a bit of a wide net you're casting. I'll limit my focus to your top four/five (since the last two are a tie for you).

 

 

So it's time to update my suspect list. There's a few odd ones. These will be in order again.

Zacch, Velocity, Lyner, Jazzy, Darkfox, MK, LWW, and Brewers.

Zacch: it's hard to say with this man. Is he a loose cannon, dose he actually have experience playing Mafia? It makes him such a wildcard. I have no doubts Brewers is actually upset Tony was killed last night but Zacch takes random offense Brewers is upset? He is the only one doing something a bit different from the Kevin wagon is really the only plus and that's just drawing attention to him. His motives seem to be constantly changing and I have to suspect him. He was on the crappy Kevin wagon to top it off. I simply can't give him a free pass. Might it isolate me as he's the only

Velocity: tbh Lyner could be 2nd as well so I have them as a tie. Putting him before Lyner is an odd thing but I feel partially he's purposely trying to avoid the spotlight. For this he takes an edge in Lyner as he's seems a bit more methodical in it. While sure, like me he didn't buy into the crappy Kevin wagon, but I feel they were entirely different reasoning for me and I think you can only take it 2 ways. If he's town how do you, (IF YOUR ARE TOWN), plan on winning by refusing to vote? Have others get the win for you?

Lyner: he's literally all over the place. I firmly believe his skimming and wonder if he even cares about the game. His vote on ISoc 1.0 was so awkward, it's like he an insensitive college saying something about a Co-worker that died last night. His posts are very small compared to most people in the game. I'd be surprised if anyone did not at least have him somewhere on there scum list. He's either Trolling, clueless, or playing the worst scum player ever.

DarkFox: He's above Jazzy mainly probably because he's more active. I'd put them more more tied honestly. He was on the Kevin Wagon, but at least seems to be trying to helpful to town and looking at different angles, but honestly everyone should be doing this. Like Jazzy he's mainly on here because of the Kevin wagon.

Jazzy: is it his no profile picture that always wants me to treat him like a noob and always Give Jazzy the beinfite of the doubt, or just not many posts or much content to begin with? I realize I've went out of order now putting these in on my phone but many are tied so it shouldn't matter.

 

[...]

VOTE ZACCH

 

Your list overall appears to be taken from other peoples' lists and rationales. On the one hand this means I can't disagree with much of it and these are real reasons to be paying attention to people. On the other hand I'm not sure if this is you just going with the flow so long as the flow is away from you.

 

Zacch was my vote yesterday, so I cannot immediately fault your choice to suspect him. You seem to have cut off the end of your paragraph talking about why, but there's not a lot of new content in this.

 

Velocity per above is currently my #1 choice - not much to say there. 

 

Lyner is weak to have on your list here as his main fault appears to be borderline inactivity that could end up with him getting modkilled. You could make the argument he's trying to lay low, but he's doing a poor job of it if so. 

 

DF - I dont understand your reasoning for equating him to Jazzy, beyond him simply being on the Kevin wagon. Unless I am forgetting something I dont think DF actively tried to equivocate or dodge voting, and he has seemed overall positive thus far. 

 

Jazzy your reasons dont seem to make much sense at all - ranking him just by avatar picture and post count when there's more relevant reasons to be talking about him, such as his having tried to avoid voting before? 

 

Your vote for Zacch at minimum puts your intentions on record. 

 

 

 

Robert is trying hard to make it sound like being on Kevins wagon= scum.... we dont know if a signle scum was even on the wagon.  Robert also instantly tied himself to kevin, when kevin voted tony.  That is a typical scum move/tell- tie yourself to a townie.    and robert is acting like what kevin did was normal town behavior.  Lets be real, kevin randomly role claiming for no reason was not a typical town move.  it was very scummy of him to do so.  Robert keeps calling out the wagon as crappy and stuff, when in reality, kevin being voted made sense for his actions.  only way to know he was town to the degree robert is being is if you are scum.

Whatever other problems there maybe with Robert, this perspective from Brewers confuses me a bit. Ignoring power roles, one of the most relevant bits we have to work from is the wagon that lynched a townie. I would be surprised if NO scum are on Kevin's wagon, even going by numbers alone - his awkward claim would have made it terribly easy to justify after the fact. 

 

Robert jumped on the Tony wagon as soon as Kevin started it and then stuck with it til the end of the day. He said it'd piss Brewers off, but the real focus appears to have been that he was supporting Kevin's choice for a competing wagon - it all comes down to Robert claiming he believed Kevin. The question is whether Robert did so with guilty knowledge, or whether he just believed Kevin for its own sake.

 

 

Looks like LWW's getting into the long post game too, I'll address select bits of it for brevity and avoiding redundancy for points already covered above:

 

 

 

Well cant say I am surprised kevin turned out to be town. It is unfortunate people piled on him without giving him a chance to prove himself. I am thinking there is at least 1 if not 2 scum on the kevin wagon. They couldnt afford to give kevin the chance to prove his ability and be a confirmed townie.

This is a dangerous mindset if you're town. Ignoring the fact that a Voyeur is not the easiest role claim for town to prove anyway, he easily could have been a mafia voyeur with a safe claim, so proving his role would not have confirmed him as town. This game is probably a role madness game, and you can bet that scum will try to come up with role claims that make town think they should avoid lynching them. We can't let people off the hook for blatantly scummy actions just because they made a claim that we can't disprove.

LWW starting a wagon on Robert is interesting. If I read this right, you're basing it on the same kind of logic for Velocity - that he was acting with guilty knowledge that Kevin was actually town - but then adding that Tony being killed makes Robert MORE likely because of personality? I don't know Robert enough to judge the merits of whether he's that petty, but that second half feels out-of-game.

It's not personality, it's the fact that he said multiple times in D2 that he thinks Tony should have mod killed or replaced, and complained when he was allowed back in the game. He made it pretty clear that he didn't want Tony to be playing (seemingly for OOC reasons) and I think that makes him more suspicious given that Tony was killed the following night. As everyone has pointed out, there is no real reason that Tony should have been killed - if anything, there were reasons for mafia to keep him alive - so I don't think that Robert's stated motives should be ignored, especially in context of him trying to tie himself to Kevin so hard.

I thought that Kevin had acted scummy in the way he role claimed and then tried analysis on a one vote train from the guy who died, but I also felt that his intentions *were* pro-town and with nobody counter-claiming black widow I had ultimately assumed that he was town, despite his actions throughout the day. Note that I said he was acting scummy, not that I thought he was scum.

This makes no sense to me. How could you tell that he's not scum if you also thought he was acting scummy?

Kevin himself commented that his ability as Voyeur wasn't the strongest - says what happened but not who. I'm not sure that proving or disproving Kevin's role was ever really up for debate - I was critical of Zacch for even suggesting any sort of test that would involve revealing another role by someone having to confirm him with the Doctor dead. 

 

The idealist in me would like to think that the OOC opinions Robert expressed about Tony being in the game wouldn't have affected Robert's actual gameplay even if he is scum. 

 

I do agree with that, it's the only thing that's making me doubt my vote at all. Since Robert was very vocal about his disdain of Tony being allowed to play, it wouldn't have taken much for a savvy scum leader to realize that killing Tony would put a huge target on Robert's back. To be honest, I think it's just as likely that Robert didn't think about the fallout that would come from killing Tony until after the day started and people got upset about it, especially since he clutched so hard to Kevin's wagon so early which feels like a tell like brewers explained, but I can't be 100% sure about that.

Yeah, this combined with Robert being one of the three votes on the Tony wagon is something that's giving me pause about Robert as well - it could be as you describe, but it's just so OBVIOUS that I'm reflexively unsure about it. 

 

----

 

Okay, with all of this caught up I'm going to summarize my thoughts/suspects and cast my own vote.

 

Scum Shortlist: Velocity, iSoc2.0, Robert, Zacch, Jazzy

 

Velocity:

• Strongly stands out to me that he was claiming offline inactivity only to suddenly post within 1 hour of Brewers calling him out and within 2 hours of day's end. This to me screams watching the thread and trying to lay low, only putting in a token presence that he didn't realize would be taken this strongly
• His D2 post tried to straddle the lines and not get officially listed on any vote wagon - scum splitting votes.
• His D3 post tries to backtrack and say that his D2 "scummy" didnt actually mean "think Kevin is scum, actually I thought he was town but didn't say it" 

iSoc2:

• Strangely this doesnt seem to be on anyone else's radar for some reason???
• iSoc2 took over for an inactive Bryan, posted an attack on LWW at the end of D2, and hasn't been seen since
• Voting for LWW was a new wagon - again showing the potential for scum splitting votes if Bryan had been inactive scum
• LWW is also someone that I generally consider to have been working in town interests, so for iSoc2 to use LWW "playing along with Kevin's wagon without dding to it" feels wrong - a thin justification to avoid being on any other wagon
• iSoc2 again hasn't posted on D3 - raises the idea that he is laying low and letting the existing wagon(s) play out. If he doesn't return he may move to my #1 spot

Robert:

• Tied himself to Kevin after Kevin started the Tony wagon, and never moved his vote even as the day ended
• One of 2 others on Kevin's Tony wagon after Tony was nightkilled and flipped town. 
• Stated his OOC opinion he didn't want Tony in the game
• Robert-as-scum interpretation
  • He wanted town cred, wanted in early for supporting Kevin, tipped his hand with guilty knowledge by doing so
  • He used the scum nightkill to remove Tony in support of his OOC reasons
  • His presence on the Tony wagon was vote spreading so that not all scum would be on the Kevin wagon
  • D3 post of suspects and reasons looks gleaned from everyone else - nothing new, some nonsensical
• Robert-As-Town interpretation
  • He believed Kevin's claim (or that Kevin wouldn't be so stupid as to claim like this if he was scum), and stayed with Kevin's choice of wagon in an attempt to save him
  • Looking back, Robert's vote came when there were only 4 votes on the Kevin wagon. With 4:2 and plenty time left in day, momentum could have shifted and Tony could have been lynched instead. Thus at that point in the day it was not a safe 'never going to happen' wagon
  • His presence on the small Tony wagon and his OOC disdain for Tony make him too obvious of a pick following the scum nightkill that flipped Tony as town
  • I have trouble seeing the personal reasons angle given that it was SUCH a bad scum play if he is scum, that it would lose the game for more than just Robert. Maybe idealist again, but throwing the game for multiple people is something I dont want to think of anyone
  • His D3 post looking like a repeat of everyone else's could be because he doesn't see anything new to add, but at least he's paying attention to have that much
• I am conflicted about Robert, as evidenced by the fact he's merited a more detailed scum/town section. He is #3 on my list for this reason.

Zacch:

• Consistent follower behavior - getting things wrong then backpedaling or joining another vote after people tell him what to do
• D2 proposed testing Kevin with other power roles after our Doctor was killed, which would have involved more people roleclaiming and outing themselves - this felt like a massive red flag
• D3 voting for Brewers as 'sus' with no elaboration until prompted, and when prompted it boiled down to little more than gut feeling - that he then promptly abandoned to follow onto Robert ... while still claiming he thinks Brewers is scum?? Why shift your vote to follow someone you suspect is scum??
• D1 pro-lynch, voting an inactive Jazzy seemingly by accident (at odds with his text), then backpedaling and saying it was to get reactions and baiting people
• D2 OMGUS vote
• The fact that Robert voted for Zacch and Zacch subsequently voted for Robert is not lost on me - a mix of OMGUS and following others' direction per above.
• He was on the Kevin wagon, again following
• Claiming newbie as an excuse for his behavior
  • Given the laundry list above it might be true that he is new, but it's dangerous to let an excuse like that stand unquestioned
  • Zacch is no longer my #1 suspect given everything else going on today, but I could easily see him as scum whether new or not - following other scum cues on how to play and generally trying to stay under the radar by letting others drive the day.

Jazzy:

• Reluctant voting - says it's a style, comments how there are enough votes to lynch Kevin and tries to stay off the wagon
• Association with Velocity who even more strongly tried to stay off the wagon; if Jazzy is scum then Velocity as scum makes more sense to avoid stacking votes, and vice versa
• Relatively quiet on D3 though has posted they intend to post again soon
• If we lynch Velocity and he flips scum, strong FoS on Jazzy

Another wall of text for everyone! Thanks for reading this far. I'll conclude with what you all know is coming by staking my position

 

Vote: Velocity

 

 

[Zacch]

Zacch: Consistent follower behavior - getting things wrong then backpedaling or joining another vote after people tell him what to do D2 proposed testing Kevin with other power roles after our Doctor was killed, which would have involved more people roleclaiming and outing themselves - this felt like a massive red flag D3 voting for Brewers as 'sus' with no elaboration until prompted, and when prompted it boiled down to little more than gut feeling - that he then promptly abandoned to follow onto Robert ... while still claiming he thinks Brewers is scum?? Why shift your vote to follow someone you suspect is scum?? D1 pro-lynch, voting an inactive Jazzy seemingly by accident (at odds with his text), then backpedaling and saying it was to get reactions and baiting people D2 OMGUS vote The fact that Robert voted for Zacch and Zacch subsequently voted for Robert is not lost on me - a mix of OMGUS and following others' direction per above. He was on the Kevin wagon, again following Claiming newbie as an excuse for his behavior Given the laundry list above it might be true that he is new, but it's dangerous to let an excuse like that stand unquestioned Zacch is no longer my #1 suspect given everything else going on today, but I could easily see him as scum whether new or not - following other scum cues on how to play and generally trying to stay under the radar by letting others drive the day.

 

 

I was not pro-lynch day 1. The jazzy vote was for lulz and the rest of day1 was OMGUS for lulz.

 

As for brewers and robert, both are on my short list at this point, but it seems like there is more momentum for robert than brewers, hence the switch in vote.

[brewersalliance]

Good to see people getting active, and it's a bit amusing that I am now apparently an adjective for post length Let's dig into the substance here, and then I'll summarize my thoughts and suspect shortlist at the end.

 

 

As for velocity, he was using a classic, oh he's scummy , but the deadline is so near, so why hammer and bother the mod..

He created a neutral standing ground at the very end.
If he did join Kevin's wagon, no one would have cared.
But his hesitation indicates that he knew that Kevin was not scum.
And he was probably afraid of people like Roberto who tends to jump on Hammerers (which is stupid, hammers are mostly never scum), now he might feared that this would attract attention to him.
Which he wants to avoid.

Aka, he is trying to incognito, not because he's scum, but because he is in a small team, i think 2 members or even SK, cause there's a few in infinity war who was going for their own, so it tracks.

We lynch Velocity, the other scum will start panicking and we will see it in their actions.

Also the night kill actions are particularly on historically low posters.
Which means they are afraid of tracking.
And velocity fits that profile.
He tends to play the least risky option when he is scum

 

Good to see a followup from MK. Much of this summarizes my current thoughts and why Velocity is currently top of my list. I am also bolding/highlighting a portion of MK's post that I think is a really good point - the fact that both kills so far are not on anyone we would have expected matches the idea of scum trying to avoid any sort of observational role. 

 

I remember TW did small mafia team + SK during the Chamber of Secrets game I played, but we have not seen a 2-kill night yet. Unless there is another protective role or bulletproof out there to have blocked the double kill, there's not yet STRONG evidence for a SK. With that said I won the Chamber of Secrets game as a SK by deliberately skipping my first even-night kill, so I can't rule it out either. Especially if Thanos is the SK and is getting powers based on stones collected.

 

 

 

[Jazzy]

 

Another person who has been trying to avoid taking sides and staying on the sidelines. The arguments against Velocity can easily fit jazz also, which I pointed out on D2, except he did later vote for kevin. Its possible Velocity and jazz are on the same team and Velocity avoided hammering kevin because he knew his scum buddy has been forced to vote for kevin and they didnt want too many scum on the wagon.

Per my post, Jazzy is still on my list as well. He has since posted that he intends to catch up on the thread soon - please do so ASAP, your silence isn't helping matters! I also bolded a good point you make - both Velocity and Jazzy were hesitant with their votes. This may have been coincidence (Jazzy claims it is just his style), but if we assume Jazzy is scum then it adds impetus for why Velocity would have wanted to avoid stacking the Kevin wagon.

 

And then Robert chimes in with a surprisingly long and detailed list. Grammar aside, this is a bit of a wide net you're casting. I'll limit my focus to your top four/five (since the last two are a tie for you).

 

 

So it's time to update my suspect list. There's a few odd ones. These will be in order again.

Zacch, Velocity, Lyner, Jazzy, Darkfox, MK, LWW, and Brewers.

Zacch: it's hard to say with this man. Is he a loose cannon, dose he actually have experience playing Mafia? It makes him such a wildcard. I have no doubts Brewers is actually upset Tony was killed last night but Zacch takes random offense Brewers is upset? He is the only one doing something a bit different from the Kevin wagon is really the only plus and that's just drawing attention to him. His motives seem to be constantly changing and I have to suspect him. He was on the crappy Kevin wagon to top it off. I simply can't give him a free pass. Might it isolate me as he's the only

Velocity: tbh Lyner could be 2nd as well so I have them as a tie. Putting him before Lyner is an odd thing but I feel partially he's purposely trying to avoid the spotlight. For this he takes an edge in Lyner as he's seems a bit more methodical in it. While sure, like me he didn't buy into the crappy Kevin wagon, but I feel they were entirely different reasoning for me and I think you can only take it 2 ways. If he's town how do you, (IF YOUR ARE TOWN), plan on winning by refusing to vote? Have others get the win for you?

Lyner: he's literally all over the place. I firmly believe his skimming and wonder if he even cares about the game. His vote on ISoc 1.0 was so awkward, it's like he an insensitive college saying something about a Co-worker that died last night. His posts are very small compared to most people in the game. I'd be surprised if anyone did not at least have him somewhere on there scum list. He's either Trolling, clueless, or playing the worst scum player ever.

DarkFox: He's above Jazzy mainly probably because he's more active. I'd put them more more tied honestly. He was on the Kevin Wagon, but at least seems to be trying to helpful to town and looking at different angles, but honestly everyone should be doing this. Like Jazzy he's mainly on here because of the Kevin wagon.

Jazzy: is it his no profile picture that always wants me to treat him like a noob and always Give Jazzy the beinfite of the doubt, or just not many posts or much content to begin with? I realize I've went out of order now putting these in on my phone but many are tied so it shouldn't matter.

 

[...]

VOTE ZACCH

 

Your list overall appears to be taken from other peoples' lists and rationales. On the one hand this means I can't disagree with much of it and these are real reasons to be paying attention to people. On the other hand I'm not sure if this is you just going with the flow so long as the flow is away from you.

 

Zacch was my vote yesterday, so I cannot immediately fault your choice to suspect him. You seem to have cut off the end of your paragraph talking about why, but there's not a lot of new content in this.

 

Velocity per above is currently my #1 choice - not much to say there. 

 

Lyner is weak to have on your list here as his main fault appears to be borderline inactivity that could end up with him getting modkilled. You could make the argument he's trying to lay low, but he's doing a poor job of it if so. 

 

DF - I dont understand your reasoning for equating him to Jazzy, beyond him simply being on the Kevin wagon. Unless I am forgetting something I dont think DF actively tried to equivocate or dodge voting, and he has seemed overall positive thus far. 

 

Jazzy your reasons dont seem to make much sense at all - ranking him just by avatar picture and post count when there's more relevant reasons to be talking about him, such as his having tried to avoid voting before? 

 

Your vote for Zacch at minimum puts your intentions on record. 

 

 

 

Robert is trying hard to make it sound like being on Kevins wagon= scum.... we dont know if a signle scum was even on the wagon.  Robert also instantly tied himself to kevin, when kevin voted tony.  That is a typical scum move/tell- tie yourself to a townie.    and robert is acting like what kevin did was normal town behavior.  Lets be real, kevin randomly role claiming for no reason was not a typical town move.  it was very scummy of him to do so.  Robert keeps calling out the wagon as crappy and stuff, when in reality, kevin being voted made sense for his actions.  only way to know he was town to the degree robert is being is if you are scum.

Whatever other problems there maybe with Robert, this perspective from Brewers confuses me a bit. Ignoring power roles, one of the most relevant bits we have to work from is the wagon that lynched a townie. I would be surprised if NO scum are on Kevin's wagon, even going by numbers alone - his awkward claim would have made it terribly easy to justify after the fact. 

 

Robert jumped on the Tony wagon as soon as Kevin started it and then stuck with it til the end of the day. He said it'd piss Brewers off, but the real focus appears to have been that he was supporting Kevin's choice for a competing wagon - it all comes down to Robert claiming he believed Kevin. The question is whether Robert did so with guilty knowledge, or whether he just believed Kevin for its own sake.

 

 

Looks like LWW's getting into the long post game too, I'll address select bits of it for brevity and avoiding redundancy for points already covered above:

 

 

 

Well cant say I am surprised kevin turned out to be town. It is unfortunate people piled on him without giving him a chance to prove himself. I am thinking there is at least 1 if not 2 scum on the kevin wagon. They couldnt afford to give kevin the chance to prove his ability and be a confirmed townie.

This is a dangerous mindset if you're town. Ignoring the fact that a Voyeur is not the easiest role claim for town to prove anyway, he easily could have been a mafia voyeur with a safe claim, so proving his role would not have confirmed him as town. This game is probably a role madness game, and you can bet that scum will try to come up with role claims that make town think they should avoid lynching them. We can't let people off the hook for blatantly scummy actions just because they made a claim that we can't disprove.

LWW starting a wagon on Robert is interesting. If I read this right, you're basing it on the same kind of logic for Velocity - that he was acting with guilty knowledge that Kevin was actually town - but then adding that Tony being killed makes Robert MORE likely because of personality? I don't know Robert enough to judge the merits of whether he's that petty, but that second half feels out-of-game.

It's not personality, it's the fact that he said multiple times in D2 that he thinks Tony should have mod killed or replaced, and complained when he was allowed back in the game. He made it pretty clear that he didn't want Tony to be playing (seemingly for OOC reasons) and I think that makes him more suspicious given that Tony was killed the following night. As everyone has pointed out, there is no real reason that Tony should have been killed - if anything, there were reasons for mafia to keep him alive - so I don't think that Robert's stated motives should be ignored, especially in context of him trying to tie himself to Kevin so hard.

I thought that Kevin had acted scummy in the way he role claimed and then tried analysis on a one vote train from the guy who died, but I also felt that his intentions *were* pro-town and with nobody counter-claiming black widow I had ultimately assumed that he was town, despite his actions throughout the day. Note that I said he was acting scummy, not that I thought he was scum.

This makes no sense to me. How could you tell that he's not scum if you also thought he was acting scummy?

Kevin himself commented that his ability as Voyeur wasn't the strongest - says what happened but not who. I'm not sure that proving or disproving Kevin's role was ever really up for debate - I was critical of Zacch for even suggesting any sort of test that would involve revealing another role by someone having to confirm him with the Doctor dead. 

 

The idealist in me would like to think that the OOC opinions Robert expressed about Tony being in the game wouldn't have affected Robert's actual gameplay even if he is scum. 

 

I do agree with that, it's the only thing that's making me doubt my vote at all. Since Robert was very vocal about his disdain of Tony being allowed to play, it wouldn't have taken much for a savvy scum leader to realize that killing Tony would put a huge target on Robert's back. To be honest, I think it's just as likely that Robert didn't think about the fallout that would come from killing Tony until after the day started and people got upset about it, especially since he clutched so hard to Kevin's wagon so early which feels like a tell like brewers explained, but I can't be 100% sure about that.

Yeah, this combined with Robert being one of the three votes on the Tony wagon is something that's giving me pause about Robert as well - it could be as you describe, but it's just so OBVIOUS that I'm reflexively unsure about it. 

 

----

 

Okay, with all of this caught up I'm going to summarize my thoughts/suspects and cast my own vote.

 

Scum Shortlist: Velocity, iSoc2.0, Robert, Zacch, Jazzy

 

Velocity:

• Strongly stands out to me that he was claiming offline inactivity only to suddenly post within 1 hour of Brewers calling him out and within 2 hours of day's end. This to me screams watching the thread and trying to lay low, only putting in a token presence that he didn't realize would be taken this strongly
• His D2 post tried to straddle the lines and not get officially listed on any vote wagon - scum splitting votes.
• His D3 post tries to backtrack and say that his D2 "scummy" didnt actually mean "think Kevin is scum, actually I thought he was town but didn't say it" 

iSoc2:

• Strangely this doesnt seem to be on anyone else's radar for some reason???
• iSoc2 took over for an inactive Bryan, posted an attack on LWW at the end of D2, and hasn't been seen since
• Voting for LWW was a new wagon - again showing the potential for scum splitting votes if Bryan had been inactive scum
• LWW is also someone that I generally consider to have been working in town interests, so for iSoc2 to use LWW "playing along with Kevin's wagon without dding to it" feels wrong - a thin justification to avoid being on any other wagon
• iSoc2 again hasn't posted on D3 - raises the idea that he is laying low and letting the existing wagon(s) play out. If he doesn't return he may move to my #1 spot

Robert:

• Tied himself to Kevin after Kevin started the Tony wagon, and never moved his vote even as the day ended
• One of 2 others on Kevin's Tony wagon after Tony was nightkilled and flipped town. 
• Stated his OOC opinion he didn't want Tony in the game
• Robert-as-scum interpretation
  • He wanted town cred, wanted in early for supporting Kevin, tipped his hand with guilty knowledge by doing so
  • He used the scum nightkill to remove Tony in support of his OOC reasons
  • His presence on the Tony wagon was vote spreading so that not all scum would be on the Kevin wagon
  • D3 post of suspects and reasons looks gleaned from everyone else - nothing new, some nonsensical
• Robert-As-Town interpretation
  • He believed Kevin's claim (or that Kevin wouldn't be so stupid as to claim like this if he was scum), and stayed with Kevin's choice of wagon in an attempt to save him
  • Looking back, Robert's vote came when there were only 4 votes on the Kevin wagon. With 4:2 and plenty time left in day, momentum could have shifted and Tony could have been lynched instead. Thus at that point in the day it was not a safe 'never going to happen' wagon
  • His presence on the small Tony wagon and his OOC disdain for Tony make him too obvious of a pick following the scum nightkill that flipped Tony as town
  • I have trouble seeing the personal reasons angle given that it was SUCH a bad scum play if he is scum, that it would lose the game for more than just Robert. Maybe idealist again, but throwing the game for multiple people is something I dont want to think of anyone
  • His D3 post looking like a repeat of everyone else's could be because he doesn't see anything new to add, but at least he's paying attention to have that much
• I am conflicted about Robert, as evidenced by the fact he's merited a more detailed scum/town section. He is #3 on my list for this reason.

Zacch:

• Consistent follower behavior - getting things wrong then backpedaling or joining another vote after people tell him what to do
• D2 proposed testing Kevin with other power roles after our Doctor was killed, which would have involved more people roleclaiming and outing themselves - this felt like a massive red flag
• D3 voting for Brewers as 'sus' with no elaboration until prompted, and when prompted it boiled down to little more than gut feeling - that he then promptly abandoned to follow onto Robert ... while still claiming he thinks Brewers is scum?? Why shift your vote to follow someone you suspect is scum??
• D1 pro-lynch, voting an inactive Jazzy seemingly by accident (at odds with his text), then backpedaling and saying it was to get reactions and baiting people
• D2 OMGUS vote
• The fact that Robert voted for Zacch and Zacch subsequently voted for Robert is not lost on me - a mix of OMGUS and following others' direction per above.
• He was on the Kevin wagon, again following
• Claiming newbie as an excuse for his behavior
  • Given the laundry list above it might be true that he is new, but it's dangerous to let an excuse like that stand unquestioned
  • Zacch is no longer my #1 suspect given everything else going on today, but I could easily see him as scum whether new or not - following other scum cues on how to play and generally trying to stay under the radar by letting others drive the day.

Jazzy:

• Reluctant voting - says it's a style, comments how there are enough votes to lynch Kevin and tries to stay off the wagon
• Association with Velocity who even more strongly tried to stay off the wagon; if Jazzy is scum then Velocity as scum makes more sense to avoid stacking votes, and vice versa
• Relatively quiet on D3 though has posted they intend to post again soon
• If we lynch Velocity and he flips scum, strong FoS on Jazzy

Another wall of text for everyone! Thanks for reading this far. I'll conclude with what you all know is coming by staking my position

 

Vote: Velocity

RHZIO WOULD BE PROUD

[Velocity]

Good to see people getting active, and it's a bit amusing that I am now apparently an adjective for post length Let's dig into the substance here, and then I'll summarize my thoughts and suspect shortlist at the end.

As for velocity, he was using a classic, oh he's scummy , but the deadline is so near, so why hammer and bother the mod..

He created a neutral standing ground at the very end.
If he did join Kevin's wagon, no one would have cared.
But his hesitation indicates that he knew that Kevin was not scum.
And he was probably afraid of people like Roberto who tends to jump on Hammerers (which is stupid, hammers are mostly never scum), now he might feared that this would attract attention to him.
Which he wants to avoid.

Aka, he is trying to incognito, not because he's scum, but because he is in a small team, i think 2 members or even SK, cause there's a few in infinity war who was going for their own, so it tracks.

We lynch Velocity, the other scum will start panicking and we will see it in their actions.

Also the night kill actions are particularly on historically low posters.
Which means they are afraid of tracking.
And velocity fits that profile.
He tends to play the least risky option when he is scum

Good to see a followup from MK. Much of this summarizes my current thoughts and why Velocity is currently top of my list. I am also bolding/highlighting a portion of MK's post that I think is a really good point - the fact that both kills so far are not on anyone we would have expected matches the idea of scum trying to avoid any sort of observational role.

I remember TW did small mafia team + SK during the Chamber of Secrets game I played, but we have not seen a 2-kill night yet. Unless there is another protective role or bulletproof out there to have blocked the double kill, there's not yet STRONG evidence for a SK. With that said I won the Chamber of Secrets game as a SK by deliberately skipping my first even-night kill, so I can't rule it out either. Especially if Thanos is the SK and is getting powers based on stones collected.

[Jazzy]

Another person who has been trying to avoid taking sides and staying on the sidelines. The arguments against Velocity can easily fit jazz also, which I pointed out on D2, except he did later vote for kevin. Its possible Velocity and jazz are on the same team and Velocity avoided hammering kevin because he knew his scum buddy has been forced to vote for kevin and they didnt want too many scum on the wagon.

Per my post, Jazzy is still on my list as well. He has since posted that he intends to catch up on the thread soon - please do so ASAP, your silence isn't helping matters! I also bolded a good point you make - both Velocity and Jazzy were hesitant with their votes. This may have been coincidence (Jazzy claims it is just his style), but if we assume Jazzy is scum then it adds impetus for why Velocity would have wanted to avoid stacking the Kevin wagon.

And then Robert chimes in with a surprisingly long and detailed list. Grammar aside, this is a bit of a wide net you're casting. I'll limit my focus to your top four/five (since the last two are a tie for you).

So it's time to update my suspect list. There's a few odd ones. These will be in order again.

Zacch, Velocity, Lyner, Jazzy, Darkfox, MK, LWW, and Brewers.

Zacch: it's hard to say with this man. Is he a loose cannon, dose he actually have experience playing Mafia? It makes him such a wildcard. I have no doubts Brewers is actually upset Tony was killed last night but Zacch takes random offense Brewers is upset? He is the only one doing something a bit different from the Kevin wagon is really the only plus and that's just drawing attention to him. His motives seem to be constantly changing and I have to suspect him. He was on the crappy Kevin wagon to top it off. I simply can't give him a free pass. Might it isolate me as he's the only
Velocity: tbh Lyner could be 2nd as well so I have them as a tie. Putting him before Lyner is an odd thing but I feel partially he's purposely trying to avoid the spotlight. For this he takes an edge in Lyner as he's seems a bit more methodical in it. While sure, like me he didn't buy into the crappy Kevin wagon, but I feel they were entirely different reasoning for me and I think you can only take it 2 ways. If he's town how do you, (IF YOUR ARE TOWN), plan on winning by refusing to vote? Have others get the win for you?

Lyner: he's literally all over the place. I firmly believe his skimming and wonder if he even cares about the game. His vote on ISoc 1.0 was so awkward, it's like he an insensitive college saying something about a Co-worker that died last night. His posts are very small compared to most people in the game. I'd be surprised if anyone did not at least have him somewhere on there scum list. He's either Trolling, clueless, or playing the worst scum player ever.

DarkFox: He's above Jazzy mainly probably because he's more active. I'd put them more more tied honestly. He was on the Kevin Wagon, but at least seems to be trying to helpful to town and looking at different angles, but honestly everyone should be doing this. Like Jazzy he's mainly on here because of the Kevin wagon.

Jazzy: is it his no profile picture that always wants me to treat him like a noob and always Give Jazzy the beinfite of the doubt, or just not many posts or much content to begin with? I realize I've went out of order now putting these in on my phone but many are tied so it shouldn't matter.

[...]
VOTE ZACCH

Your list overall appears to be taken from other peoples' lists and rationales. On the one hand this means I can't disagree with much of it and these are real reasons to be paying attention to people. On the other hand I'm not sure if this is you just going with the flow so long as the flow is away from you.

Zacch was my vote yesterday, so I cannot immediately fault your choice to suspect him. You seem to have cut off the end of your paragraph talking about why, but there's not a lot of new content in this.

Velocity per above is currently my #1 choice - not much to say there.

Lyner is weak to have on your list here as his main fault appears to be borderline inactivity that could end up with him getting modkilled. You could make the argument he's trying to lay low, but he's doing a poor job of it if so.

DF - I dont understand your reasoning for equating him to Jazzy, beyond him simply being on the Kevin wagon. Unless I am forgetting something I dont think DF actively tried to equivocate or dodge voting, and he has seemed overall positive thus far.

Jazzy your reasons dont seem to make much sense at all - ranking him just by avatar picture and post count when there's more relevant reasons to be talking about him, such as his having tried to avoid voting before?

Your vote for Zacch at minimum puts your intentions on record.

Robert is trying hard to make it sound like being on Kevins wagon= scum.... we dont know if a signle scum was even on the wagon. Robert also instantly tied himself to kevin, when kevin voted tony. That is a typical scum move/tell- tie yourself to a townie. and robert is acting like what kevin did was normal town behavior. Lets be real, kevin randomly role claiming for no reason was not a typical town move. it was very scummy of him to do so. Robert keeps calling out the wagon as crappy and stuff, when in reality, kevin being voted made sense for his actions. only way to know he was town to the degree robert is being is if you are scum.

Whatever other problems there maybe with Robert, this perspective from Brewers confuses me a bit. Ignoring power roles, one of the most relevant bits we have to work from is the wagon that lynched a townie. I would be surprised if NO scum are on Kevin's wagon, even going by numbers alone - his awkward claim would have made it terribly easy to justify after the fact.

Robert jumped on the Tony wagon as soon as Kevin started it and then stuck with it til the end of the day. He said it'd piss Brewers off, but the real focus appears to have been that he was supporting Kevin's choice for a competing wagon - it all comes down to Robert claiming he believed Kevin. The question is whether Robert did so with guilty knowledge, or whether he just believed Kevin for its own sake.


Looks like LWW's getting into the long post game too, I'll address select bits of it for brevity and avoiding redundancy for points already covered above:

Well cant say I am surprised kevin turned out to be town. It is unfortunate people piled on him without giving him a chance to prove himself. I am thinking there is at least 1 if not 2 scum on the kevin wagon. They couldnt afford to give kevin the chance to prove his ability and be a confirmed townie.

This is a dangerous mindset if you're town. Ignoring the fact that a Voyeur is not the easiest role claim for town to prove anyway, he easily could have been a mafia voyeur with a safe claim, so proving his role would not have confirmed him as town. This game is probably a role madness game, and you can bet that scum will try to come up with role claims that make town think they should avoid lynching them. We can't let people off the hook for blatantly scummy actions just because they made a claim that we can't disprove.

LWW starting a wagon on Robert is interesting. If I read this right, you're basing it on the same kind of logic for Velocity - that he was acting with guilty knowledge that Kevin was actually town - but then adding that Tony being killed makes Robert MORE likely because of personality? I don't know Robert enough to judge the merits of whether he's that petty, but that second half feels out-of-game.

It's not personality, it's the fact that he said multiple times in D2 that he thinks Tony should have mod killed or replaced, and complained when he was allowed back in the game. He made it pretty clear that he didn't want Tony to be playing (seemingly for OOC reasons) and I think that makes him more suspicious given that Tony was killed the following night. As everyone has pointed out, there is no real reason that Tony should have been killed - if anything, there were reasons for mafia to keep him alive - so I don't think that Robert's stated motives should be ignored, especially in context of him trying to tie himself to Kevin so hard.

I thought that Kevin had acted scummy in the way he role claimed and then tried analysis on a one vote train from the guy who died, but I also felt that his intentions *were* pro-town and with nobody counter-claiming black widow I had ultimately assumed that he was town, despite his actions throughout the day. Note that I said he was acting scummy, not that I thought he was scum.

This makes no sense to me. How could you tell that he's not scum if you also thought he was acting scummy?

Kevin himself commented that his ability as Voyeur wasn't the strongest - says what happened but not who. I'm not sure that proving or disproving Kevin's role was ever really up for debate - I was critical of Zacch for even suggesting any sort of test that would involve revealing another role by someone having to confirm him with the Doctor dead.

The idealist in me would like to think that the OOC opinions Robert expressed about Tony being in the game wouldn't have affected Robert's actual gameplay even if he is scum.

I do agree with that, it's the only thing that's making me doubt my vote at all. Since Robert was very vocal about his disdain of Tony being allowed to play, it wouldn't have taken much for a savvy scum leader to realize that killing Tony would put a huge target on Robert's back. To be honest, I think it's just as likely that Robert didn't think about the fallout that would come from killing Tony until after the day started and people got upset about it, especially since he clutched so hard to Kevin's wagon so early which feels like a tell like brewers explained, but I can't be 100% sure about that.

Yeah, this combined with Robert being one of the three votes on the Tony wagon is something that's giving me pause about Robert as well - it could be as you describe, but it's just so OBVIOUS that I'm reflexively unsure about it.

----

Okay, with all of this caught up I'm going to summarize my thoughts/suspects and cast my own vote.

Scum Shortlist: Velocity, iSoc2.0, Robert, Zacch, Jazzy

Velocity:

• Strongly stands out to me that he was claiming offline inactivity only to suddenly post within 1 hour of Brewers calling him out and within 2 hours of day's end. This to me screams watching the thread and trying to lay low, only putting in a token presence that he didn't realize would be taken this strongly
• His D2 post tried to straddle the lines and not get officially listed on any vote wagon - scum splitting votes.
• His D3 post tries to backtrack and say that his D2 "scummy" didnt actually mean "think Kevin is scum, actually I thought he was town but didn't say it"

iSoc2:

• Strangely this doesnt seem to be on anyone else's radar for some reason???
• iSoc2 took over for an inactive Bryan, posted an attack on LWW at the end of D2, and hasn't been seen since
• Voting for LWW was a new wagon - again showing the potential for scum splitting votes if Bryan had been inactive scum
• LWW is also someone that I generally consider to have been working in town interests, so for iSoc2 to use LWW "playing along with Kevin's wagon without dding to it" feels wrong - a thin justification to avoid being on any other wagon
• iSoc2 again hasn't posted on D3 - raises the idea that he is laying low and letting the existing wagon(s) play out. If he doesn't return he may move to my #1 spot

Robert:

• Tied himself to Kevin after Kevin started the Tony wagon, and never moved his vote even as the day ended
• One of 2 others on Kevin's Tony wagon after Tony was nightkilled and flipped town.
• Stated his OOC opinion he didn't want Tony in the game
• Robert-as-scum interpretation
  • He wanted town cred, wanted in early for supporting Kevin, tipped his hand with guilty knowledge by doing so
  • He used the scum nightkill to remove Tony in support of his OOC reasons
  • His presence on the Tony wagon was vote spreading so that not all scum would be on the Kevin wagon
  • D3 post of suspects and reasons looks gleaned from everyone else - nothing new, some nonsensical
• Robert-As-Town interpretation
  • He believed Kevin's claim (or that Kevin wouldn't be so stupid as to claim like this if he was scum), and stayed with Kevin's choice of wagon in an attempt to save him
  • Looking back, Robert's vote came when there were only 4 votes on the Kevin wagon. With 4:2 and plenty time left in day, momentum could have shifted and Tony could have been lynched instead. Thus at that point in the day it was not a safe 'never going to happen' wagon
  • His presence on the small Tony wagon and his OOC disdain for Tony make him too obvious of a pick following the scum nightkill that flipped Tony as town
  • I have trouble seeing the personal reasons angle given that it was SUCH a bad scum play if he is scum, that it would lose the game for more than just Robert. Maybe idealist again, but throwing the game for multiple people is something I dont want to think of anyone
  • His D3 post looking like a repeat of everyone else's could be because he doesn't see anything new to add, but at least he's paying attention to have that much
• I am conflicted about Robert, as evidenced by the fact he's merited a more detailed scum/town section. He is #3 on my list for this reason.

Zacch:

• Consistent follower behavior - getting things wrong then backpedaling or joining another vote after people tell him what to do
• D2 proposed testing Kevin with other power roles after our Doctor was killed, which would have involved more people roleclaiming and outing themselves - this felt like a massive red flag
• D3 voting for Brewers as 'sus' with no elaboration until prompted, and when prompted it boiled down to little more than gut feeling - that he then promptly abandoned to follow onto Robert ... while still claiming he thinks Brewers is scum?? Why shift your vote to follow someone you suspect is scum??
• D1 pro-lynch, voting an inactive Jazzy seemingly by accident (at odds with his text), then backpedaling and saying it was to get reactions and baiting people
• D2 OMGUS vote
• The fact that Robert voted for Zacch and Zacch subsequently voted for Robert is not lost on me - a mix of OMGUS and following others' direction per above.
• He was on the Kevin wagon, again following
• Claiming newbie as an excuse for his behavior
• Given the laundry list above it might be true that he is new, but it's dangerous to let an excuse like that stand unquestioned
• Zacch is no longer my #1 suspect given everything else going on today, but I could easily see him as scum whether new or not - following other scum cues on how to play and generally trying to stay under the radar by letting others drive the day.

Jazzy:

• Reluctant voting - says it's a style, comments how there are enough votes to lynch Kevin and tries to stay off the wagon
• Association with Velocity who even more strongly tried to stay off the wagon; if Jazzy is scum then Velocity as scum makes more sense to avoid stacking votes, and vice versa
• Relatively quiet on D3 though has posted they intend to post again soon
• If we lynch Velocity and he flips scum, strong FoS on Jazzy

Another wall of text for everyone! Thanks for reading this far. I'll conclude with what you all know is coming by staking my position

Vote: Velocity

I am once again ~~asking for your financial support~~ on mobile, so I apologize for quoting the entire message.

I’m not sure what to tell you about my late post lol, I was tired as balls from a long week and wanted to get a post out the door before the day was over so I wouldn’t be entirely missing, if I wanted to lay low I would’ve said nothing and then come back on D3 saying I worked extra long hours, and lie or say I was just super tired from the long week or whatever, but I literally did just work a lot last week and didn’t really have the effort to put in a post before just before deadline, but then I was asked by somebody on discord why I hadn’t posted in a few days so I got some spurs to do so.

As per me “staying off of the wagon,” and “not expecting it to be taken so hard,” I again point to my late post. If I was scum, I wouldn’t have said a word and nobody would be questioning me becuase I could’ve just said that I was too busy and forgot or some other excuse, but I came in to give an answer that was my straight out opinion.

I’m not entirely sure what you guys think is wrong with “I think the actions Kevin took were scummy, but ultimately were done with the intention of pro-town,” because I think some people misconstrued what he RC’d for in the first place. Somebody questioned if there was a set kill list of people with the infinity stones, or if iSoc was chosen at random/for another reason, and he wanted to help clarify that there was a killing action taken and that iSoc didn’t just die. Granted I don’t think he should’ve RC’d for it, and it was a scummy action to do so *in hindsight,* but I didn’t at the time think he did it with anti-town intentions.

[lilweirdward]

I'll try to respond to some stuff in a bit, but can we get a vote count? It feels like town is very split and there are people sitting on the sidelines for this debate.

[Imran Ehsan]

My top two scum suspects are Robert and jazzy

How jazzy joined the Kevin wagon to me felt like where scum would be

Jazzy hasn’t been very vocal tho so I’d be okay with lynching either Robert or jazzy but I feel like it has to be one of the two today

I do agree with that, it's the only thing that's making me doubt my vote at all. Since Robert was very vocal about his disdain of Tony being allowed to play, it wouldn't have taken much for a savvy scum leader to realize that killing Tony would put a huge target on Robert's back. To be honest, I think it's just as likely that Robert didn't think about the fallout that would come from killing Tony until after the day started and people got upset about it, especially since he clutched so hard to Kevin's wagon so early which feels like a tell like brewers explained, but I can't be 100% sure about that.

Actually this is a good point with Robert and tony.

I was thinking that it was a dick move to kill tony. Almost felt intentional and vindictive and maybe someone from iron was but hurt about him being allowed to play

Vote robert

While I still think Brewers is scum, I have to agree with his assessment of Robert.

Unvote

Vote: Robert

Wait what? You think brewers is scum but you will still vote with him? You think brewers is voting for his scum partner to be lynched? Or maybe you just want to lynch anyone regardless of whether he is town or scum? Or you are just saying brewers is scum as a cover up in case he turns out scum?

FOS zacch

I have some other observations also which I will post later when I get some time, but zacchs actions are too bewidering to pass up.

[Lord MK]

Yeah, zacch's actions are a little too sus for me to pass up.
He accuses brewers of being scum, yet votes with me.
That's so weird.

FoS Zach.

[Imran Ehsan]

OK I have gone through some of the earlier posts that I wanted to check and I will share my observations here:

 

1.  The big question, Robert - Is he scum who knew kevin will turn town when lynched? Or did he truly believed kevins claim and followed him to vote the person kevin thought was scum? Or did he vote for Tony for OOC reasons and then killed him at nght for OOC reasons? I beleive if we can address these question we will have some idea of what may be happening. Roberts subequent posts have been way over the place and as some have already pointed out they seem to be superficial observations. Is it because its a scum looking for way out or is it just a case of he is not good at words to defend himself from the accusations being thrown at him?

 

My first observation -> Robert was the 2nd vote on TM when there were only 3 votes on Kevin. I think there were still 8 votes pending at that time, and it was nowhere certain that others will actually vote to lynch kevin. If kevin was scum, this quick rush to vote TM would have made sense for scum Robert, scum partner opening up a separate lynch wagon to save is buddy. If Robert is scum, he also knoew TM is town. So I am asking myself why would scum Robert prefer to lynch TM instead of Kevin. He would just sit on the sidelines and act like he doesnt have time to read/too busy with RL/his own playstyle is not voting etc. as some others have already done. OK so lets say he assumed very early that kevin will be lynched and so he voted TM to look like a townie who was trying to save a townie with PR. But then he goes to night and kills TM (??!) confirming TM to be town (??) and making his position extremely vulnerable.

 

Here LWW is making the point that Robert didnt think it through or didn't realize the blow-back will be so hard. But lww then later goes on to admit that Robert is an experienced player. This is looking very contradictory to me. Even if we think Robert made a gross error in killing TM (even being expereinced in this game), what about his scum buddies? Are they noobs also or were they too inactive to decide who to kill and Robert made the decision on his own? Does this add up?

 

Now we come to OOC reasons. Brewers and Zacch seems to be voting for Robert with the assumption that Robert killed on OOC reasons. I earlier stated this is a plausible theory, but N1 iSoc killing didnt make sense. Also this assumption means all the scum are IRON members who are all acting on a vendetta to kill TM. Unless here also the argument is being made that Robert himself is the sole decision maker in the scum team and others are silent partners or inactive. What is the probability of all scum being IRON members and out to take out TM? This also ignores the probability that TW can bring back TM anytime in the game as a replacement (iSocilism seems to have gone inactive). Will the scum team again kill replacement TM?

 

The reasons for the votes on Robert seem very weak to me. The only scummy tell I have on Robert is that super-fast vote he made on TM after kevin voted for him. This shows he probably did not vote for TM based on any logical reason but was just following kevins vote knowing kevn is a townie. But him later killing TM and confirming him to be town makes no sense.

 

Other observations:

1. Zacch is acting extremely scummy. Preston pointed out above about the time he wanted PR roles to come out with the doctor dead. Then he has been very quick to jump on wagons on flimsy/weird excuses. Now is this because he is a newby or an inexperienced scum? He is already on the wagon of killing 1 townie. We will see where it goes.

2. brewers and lww seems to be working as a team. By that I mean where one goes the other goes. In D2 brewers voted for kevin followed almost instantaneously by lww. In D3, lww voted for Robert followed almost instantaneously by brewers, even though on D2 he said he found Velocity scummy.They are working 1-2, with none questioning the other. I dont know if this is a scum team or some other faction, but their actions are too closely matched to be ignored. I am only putting this out here now in the event I get killed at night. Something to be aware of.

3. iSocialism seems to be inactive. Maybe a replacement is in order.

4. Lyner is acting weird as well. I am not buying that he did not realize what was going on in D2.

 

5. Finally the issue of Velocity and jazz. Here also I have a feeling of team work going on but not as blatant as brewers/lww. I am still waiting on jazz to post.

[Imran Ehsan]

ps: OK a slight correction. Kevin was on 4 votes when he voted for TM. Zacch actuallu voted for kevin before kevin did on TM. TW wasnt putting up regular vote counts so missed that. But anyway, my point still stands.

[Robert2424]

And suddenly after putting some pressure on him, he goes and dose that. I guess I'll take what I can get.

And no Lyner. If your going to play, you gotta care. I'm not dropping it.

I have to question if Brewers even suspects Jazzy, and if Zacch even suspects Brewers. I'm getting way to big of scum buddy vibes from all this crap.

[The Warrior]

Vote Count
 

Robert2424 (3): lilweirdward, Brewersalliance, Zacch

Velocity (3): Lord MK, Lyner, Preston

Zacch (1): Robert2424

Brewersalliance (0):

Darkfox (0):

Imran Ehsan (0):

iSocialism2.0 (0):

Jazzy95 (0):

lilweirdward (0):

Lord MK (0):

Lyner (0):

Preston (0):

 

No Lynch (0):

 

Not Voting: Darkfox, Imran Ehsan, iSocialism2.0, Jazzy95, Velocity

 

With 12 players alive it takes 6 to lynch or 3 at deadline.
Deadline will be at 5:00PM CN Server time on Saturday, August 27th.

[Zacch]

 

Wait what? You think brewers is scum but you will still vote with him? You think brewers is voting for his scum partner to be lynched? Or maybe you just want to lynch anyone regardless of whether he is town or scum? Or you are just saying brewers is scum as a cover up in case he turns out scum?

FOS zacch

I have some other observations also which I will post later when I get some time, but zacchs actions are too bewidering to pass up.

 

 

That's a good point, my hunch is that brewers is scum, but based on everyone's feedback about his statements being genuine (which was my reasoning for suspecting him as scum), I have gotten off that wagon for now.

[lilweirdward]

Vote Count

Not Voting: Darkfox, Imran Ehsan, iSocialism2.0, Jazzy95, Velocity

These people need to start taking sides. Instant FoS to anyone who doesn't vote today, and we only have a few more RL days until the day ends. Don't necessarily need everyone to vote right this minute, but some of these people haven't even posted today, much less given any FoS or indicated who they're suspicious of.

[lilweirdward]

I’m not entirely sure what you guys think is wrong with “I think the actions Kevin took were scummy, but ultimately were done with the intention of pro-town,” because I think some people misconstrued what he RC’d for in the first place. Somebody questioned if there was a set kill list of people with the infinity stones, or if iSoc was chosen at random/for another reason, and he wanted to help clarify that there was a killing action taken and that iSoc didn’t just die. Granted I don’t think he should’ve RC’d for it, and it was a scummy action to do so *in hindsight,* but I didn’t at the time think he did it with anti-town intentions.

The last sentence really boggles my mind. How could his action have been more scummy in hindsight than in the moment? With the benefit of hindsight, we know that Kevin was town, so his actions should seem less scummy since, well, they obviously weren't scummy at all lol. This is the kind of thing that scum would think because in the moment they obviously knew that Kevin wasn't scum, but looking back you can try to sympathize with why town suspected him.

Idk dude, you've really done nothing since the end of D2 that's made yourself less suspicious. My gut says that you're a townie that made a weird comment and you're just doing an awful job of explaining your way out of it, but I don't feel remotely confident about that.