Preston

In terms of 'finally getting me to talk', my reasons for being interested in you were already previously stated in the posts I quoted - you either ignored it or glossed over it when it was said the first time. What is different now is that your defensive reaction has taken what was speculation about you and drawn more attention to it. When you post something like this: It frankly sounds desperate, challenging the person to "prove it" like that - and yes, it's Wolfpacks you were talking to. Your second paragraph is a little difficult to parse, but it sounds like you are providing a scenario where it made sense for scum to target Finster instead of you - the idea that because we are currently looking for a Godfather, it would make sense for them to kill someone Kevin had not already cleared... because they are not yet on the list of the cleared-but-possibly-godfather. Unlike your previous post I can understand this concept as a valid possibility, though I do not agree with it - if anything the pool of uninvestigated people is the group that would have to be all cop-investigated or all killed before we can KNOW a godfather is in play, such that there is no uncertainty about the need to lynch someone Kevin had seen as town. So I think it would have made sense for scum to prolong that uncertainty for as long as possible by not killing off the uninvestigated - at least as I see it. And I don't think you're correctly understanding my interest in your focus on name claiming: 1. One of the confirmed scum, King Hitler, actively used his name as a defense. Paying specific attention to names like that therefore takes on a scummy slant to me, especially with SM's stating that in a prior game she was given a safe-to-claim role name. You pre-emptively dropped your name to justify yourself in a similar manner that King Hitler did. 2. You stated that the point of name claiming was to get scum to trip themselves up, and so you challenged Wolfpacks to reveal his name. But then you defeated your own purpose by naming yourself first, making the job easier for scum to not use your name. Which I take to mean that your name claim wasn't meant to accomplish anything in the first place, other than getting your own name out as a defense of yourself. 3. Possibly relevant, possibly not - but the character name you claimed, Dean Thomas, is a non-main-character name that TW listed in his flavor text already. If SM is wrong about scum not having a 'safe claim' name in this game, then drawing a name from TW's flavor is another source of canon names. I'm not surprised by your counter-vote on me, but at this point you've drawn a lot of attention to yourself. Lyner and Wolfpacks remain other possibilities, but stretching like you did in your linkspam post has me feeling you're the scummiest of the lot right now. Unless someone can demonstrate a better rationale for Wolfpacks or Lyner, I'm going to keep my vote where it is. -Preston

Sorry in advance, this one is going to be a bit long - but you won't have to click through links to see what I'm referring to. So when iSocialism led with this: I was expecting something more coherent than a laundry list of my posts with no specific lines or points called out in them, just labelling the entire mass 'suspicious'. If you had a clear reason to suspect me you could have summarized it when you made the original post - but with the delay and now this, I am more inclined to see it as your needing the time to try and find something to back up what you'd originally said. Even if it's slow, you could have typed everything but the list of links on your phone. What I focused on you for was setting up "I'm going to have something to say!" and then not saying it - either you already had the idea in your head at the start, or you didn't. How is the following not scum hunting, or indeed subtle at all? 1-shot commuter... and claims that it might be why Samus's role was different. If you didnt use your role, it should not have done anything to affect Samus on Night 2. But then you claim you tried to commute on Night 3? How many shots again? I think we may have found our second scum right here. And the fact that Finster pointed out what he did, along with Samus's result on Night 3, exonerates Finster in my eyes. Because I don't want the Ali wagon to immediately reach its end and kill the day (and because I still want to be skeptical of Kevin's roleclaim due to how 'too good to be true' it seems), I'm casting my vote for King Hitler: Vote: King Hitler I looked for signs of contradiction in someone, and it proved them to be scum. I broke down who remained into my theories about scum and town, and looked for who we should examine next. That *is* scum hunting. So I don't know where you are pulling out that I am somehow being subtle about it. How am I saying we dont have a godfather role in play? It's provably *possible* that we do not - there are people yet uninvestigated by Kevin, and it's worth covering all cases - but that does not mean a godfather isn't present. You're stretching to find some fault with me here. As for me keeping myself away from the theory of a godfather - no, I have very explicitly pointed out that 1) a godfather could be present and 2) that it could technically be me as well. I will also point out that my post is the first one in the thread to explicitly mention a godfather from Kevin's findings aside from people quoting TW's role listings. If I were a godfather, it would make so much more sense to just not bring it up. I hunted scum and called BS on KH, who was proven scum. Good things then? The only thing you get right in your spiel is that early in the game I *was* heavily suspicious of Kevin and Finster. Finster jumped votes all over the place and suggested a roleclaim on day 2, and Kevin's posting style seemed utterly statistical- going after inactivity and post counts, such that if he lynched town he could point to his numbers and not claim any responsibility. That style did not sit well with me, and so Kevin's initial roleclaim as a cop was not fully trusted. However I voted for AbT as part of testing KevinH's claim, which is far from letting others simply do the voting for me. In my quote above you can see where I removed my FoS on Finster, and while I remained suspicious of Kevin for longer at this point we are all mostly trusting his input. So here is your rebuttal. Everything in this game and thread is opinion - however you built up the reveal of your opinion about me specifically with your earlier announcement, and everything in it except my early game suspicion of Kevin and Finster has been wrong. Simply saying you think I am suspicious and giving people a laundry list of my posts to draw their own conclusions isn't anything coherent worth teasing a multi-day wait over... which makes this look like little more than an attempt to divert attention onto me and away from yourself. Take a look at my original post that you responded so strongly to: I did not single out iSocialism alone, I continued scum hunting by looking at remaining candidates on my short list. The only thing I said for waiting on you was in response to your "wait a few days" statement. And in response to that, you jumped immediately to "I don't have to answer to you Preston"... what? That's incredibly defensive on your part, as I commented: Wow, that's a very defensive reaction to my comments. No one has to 'answer to' anyone in this thread - but I don't think you do yourself any favors by remaining vague like that. Town typically does better when more information comes out, not less. If I read what you wrote correctly, the reason you say you're delaying whatever note about me you teased is to delay the wolfpacks wagon... but per yesterday we've seen that anyone can finish the lynch quickly, so I am not sure how effective drawing out that statement will be. You seem to be linking a "Helpful Hogwarts Staff" finding from Kevin as a power role indication, but that did not apply to Chaplain of Death - for that matter Kevin himself has claimed to be Hermione Granger, which would be a student and not staff. So FB not having been investigated did not make him any more likely to have had a power role. You seem to believe that it did, and that's why he was chosen over you last night. Scum logic is always WIFOM to try and figure out, but Finster was no more or less likely to have a role than anyone left alive. You are correct that KH was not actually Ron, but he gave that name previously and then asked if it sounded like scum or not as part of his defense - and no one challenged him about it, even though he proved scum in the end. Therefore I think that name-listing is unlikely to produce a name-counter... so at best I find the name claiming a distraction, and at worst a way that scum try to show that they have non-scum names as part of their defense. You may disagree with this assessment, and that's fine. But I find it interesting that you pushed Wolfpacks ( who has a half-majority already ) to post their name, then posted your own first - wouldn't that go against the idea of looking for someone to lie and be caught by a counter? He certainly won't claim the name you've used anymore. Up to you how to respond from here - but I am still interested in you following through on whatever you'd said you would say in a few days. These two posts also contain my reasons for watching iSocialism as a candidate... and he has not done any favors for himself being this defensive in the meantime, snapping back and forth with people and capping it off with this post that is a laundry list of links and mostly false statements. As much as Kevin seems to want to suggest Wolfpacks, I am now heavily leaning toward iSocialism. And because you say I let others do the voting for me... Vote: iSocialism Most notable reasons include his pressure for name-claiming as a way to catch scum (that he then defeats by posting his own name first), his defensiveness so far during the day, and the fact that scum did not target him despite his hammer on the KH wagon. None of these are conclusive, all opinion - but it currently makes iSoc the most scummy alive as I see it. -Preston

Briefly before I go to bed: I *was* on the Ali wagon, and did vote for scum then. So "Never" is inaccurate. I think you are responding to Kevin's statement that Wolfpacks and I did not vote for Lego or KH, so I'll speak to that. Lego's wagon shift happened rapidly at the end of Day 2 - the whole wagon built from nothing between the post I had that night and the time I got back to the thread. I got in a brief post before the thread locked, and was at the time suspicious of how that wagon built so fast. Up until that point the debate had been over Rafay vs Mazuurek as inactives. Lego proved scum, so I didn't view the wagon with suspicion on the following day - had it lynched a townie I'd have been paying attention to who made it build that fast. With King Hitler, I was pointedly pushing for him to not be forgotten in spite of Kevin's repeated statements that he did not think it was how a scum would respond. I pushed KH for more info to satisfy those on the fence, and then the wagon got hammered to end the day - but there should be no mistaking that I was pushing for KH as that day's lynch candidate over Lyner. -Preston

Checking Mazuurek at minimum still has value. The only thing clearing him on your list is a line of reasoning about how he COULD have been lynched at one point, and something more solid would be preferable so that his +1'ing can be confirmed town. As for your statement about 'perceived long-term pressure on a scum'... it feels like that is in response to my prior post. If you doubt even that then I am not sure what can convince you - but at the same time if you take as premise that scum are willing to vote for their own, then you might as well scrap the idea of clearing those who have voted for scum. You can take paranoia and assumption of their planning too far. And as for Kevin still being alive, which Lyner also comments on: last night the town's protective role was still in play - the scum had not yet found what prevented their kill on night 3. We don't know if they had knowledge to select Finster or if they just got lucky, but as SM states it would have been a valid assumption to predict that Kevin would be protected. With that said, he MIGHT be the target tonight - or he might not. If he is targeted it would cast suspicion on the remaining un-investigated members tonight. If he is NOT targeted... what then? No more town roles or clearly pro-town are evident as obvious targets. As for this... maybe iSocialism is still preparing whatever his revelation will be, but he HAS stopped responding when he was going pretty fast and furious with it earlier. He's committed to saying SOMETHING, and whatever it is will be interesting to see. -Preston

Kevin reiterates that by votes alone, Wolfpacks and I were not on the Legoboy or King Hitler wagon. This is factually true, however I will similarly reiterate that I have focused heavily on King Hitler for several days now, in spite of doubts about his claim. I don't want that context to be lost. So Kevin's post then points at Wolfpacks by votes alone, in addition to his recanted defense of Ali that Kevin mentioned earlier. It's a statistical approach, again. Beyond that... we've got a lot of back-and-forth between iSocialism and Wolfpacks, getting fairly heated on iSoc's side. He's asking for time to voice his opinion... I don't see anything stopping him from doing it now? I thought it curious when he responded so forcefully to when I mentioned him, Lyner and Wolfpacks all at once, but it seems to have kept going throughout the day. To make my current thought process clear: Wolfpacks by votes bears attention, and for his disagreement about Ali a while back. However by current reactions I am more suspicious of iSocialism, and will likely remain so until he brings out whatever he has to say that he keeps teasing us with. I also want to comment/confirm something - we have 7 people remaining today, 4 people to lynch. If we mis-lynch today and scum gets their kill tonight, we'll be down to 5 people - and only 3 people will be needed to lynch. Assuming one scum remains, that will mean that any TWO votes on the wrong person could let the scum hammer it. So 1) we dont have many mistakes left, and 2) if we get to tomorrow and I'm dead and cant remind you, remember to NOT double up on votes quickly - I'm talking particularly to you Mazuurek, give it time first. I will post tomorrow afternoon; gotta get to sleep early tonight for a big presentation in the morning. -Preston

Wow, that's a very defensive reaction to my comments. No one has to 'answer to' anyone in this thread - but I don't think you do yourself any favors by remaining vague like that. Town typically does better when more information comes out, not less. If I read what you wrote correctly, the reason you say you're delaying whatever note about me you teased is to delay the wolfpacks wagon... but per yesterday we've seen that anyone can finish the lynch quickly, so I am not sure how effective drawing out that statement will be. You seem to be linking a "Helpful Hogwarts Staff" finding from Kevin as a power role indication, but that did not apply to Chaplain of Death - for that matter Kevin himself has claimed to be Hermione Granger, which would be a student and not staff. So FB not having been investigated did not make him any more likely to have had a power role. You seem to believe that it did, and that's why he was chosen over you last night. Scum logic is always WIFOM to try and figure out, but Finster was no more or less likely to have a role than anyone left alive. You are correct that KH was not actually Ron, but he gave that name previously and then asked if it sounded like scum or not as part of his defense - and no one challenged him about it, even though he proved scum in the end. Therefore I think that name-listing is unlikely to produce a name-counter... so at best I find the name claiming a distraction, and at worst a way that scum try to show that they have non-scum names as part of their defense. You may disagree with this assessment, and that's fine. But I find it interesting that you pushed Wolfpacks ( who has a half-majority already ) to post their name, then posted your own first - wouldn't that go against the idea of looking for someone to lie and be caught by a counter? He certainly won't claim the name you've used anymore. Up to you how to respond from here - but I am still interested in you following through on whatever you'd said you would say in a few days. -Preston

Ouch that we lost our Doctor with Finster - the remaining scum got lucky with that shot. I'd frankly thought they would go after iSocialism for his hammer vote; that they didn't is something I find interesting. And as for King Hitler: I am immensely gratified to see that he was indeed scum and that his lie was as meaningful as it appeared. It made no sense to me why people weren't giving that more weight, up to and including Kevin's defense of him. So unless the remaining scum is Mazuurek, SM, or somehow Kevin himself then it means that Kevin has already investigated them - and hence a Godfather is in play. Which would also mean they have no other power beyond appearing innocent to investigations. I am assuming we have only one scum left to find, as well; if there are actually FIVE scum then it will change how we're looking. Right now I'm not looking for signs/patterns of people covering for someone still alive, because I believe/hope the scum remaining is a singleton... but we'll see. Dealing with this first: Character names did nothing to convince anyone about King Hitler, and KH was insistent on his name as part of his defense - something to the effect of "Does Ron Weasley sound like a scum name to you?" - so I think SM may be correct that the scum were given a name they can 'safely' claim without the rest of their role. Which means I see this name-only claiming as a bit suspicious. And per before I am not a fan of vagueness... so instead of explaining whatever has you leaning about me in a few days, can we get it out in the open for discussion now? I was suspicious of how quickly the votes built on Lyner yesterday. And while iSoc hammered KH, the tide was visibly shifting and that may have been a distancing move - so I cannot disagree with Lyner's comment here. Responding first to the understandable scrutiny: I did not have a vote on record for KH yesterday, but neither did I join the Lyner wagon that was one vote away from completion; if I were scum I could have +1'd that wagon quite easily, with Kevin and Finster also onboard backing the rationale. Instead I continued to maintain that KH's lie was scummy despite Kevin's defense of it as not something scum would do, and gave him one more opportunity clear himself if he was town - trip himself up if he was scum. He obviously proved the latter. So while I don't have a vote for KH yesterday, that is definitely where my focus lay. So with that out of the way - Wolfpacks seems to be all over the place with his posts. I'm not sure what to think about that - so Kevin's rationale may be the best we have on him. Lyner I'm not sure about. Yesterday nearly ended him with a rapid wagon that iSoc started, and King Hitler *could* have hammered it to finished the lynch before conversation and votes for him built too much further - i.e. he posted while Lyner was at 4 votes when a 5th would have done it. Does this mean Lyner is scum that his ally wouldn't hammer, or was King just screwing around at that point - especially since his post at that point was not very serious? iSocialism is also currently on my radar for a few reasons: 1) Why did the scum target Finster who was merely on the KH wagon, and not iSocialism who hammered it? Either the hammer vote is supposed to mean something, or he was using it to jump on the existing wagon before it ended. 2) iSoc's reference to role name claiming for Wolfpacks, and then proactively offering his own like he wanted to get it out as part of his own innocence. KH banked heavily on his own name too as part of his defense. 3) iSoc's vague reference to something about me he wants to say later in the day... obviously I'll pay attention to it, but I also want to know why he's not just saying it NOW? With Mazuurek's +1 vote on Wolfpacks, it is not safe to vote there right now because that could end the day immediately if someone hammers it. I am open to that being what we go with today, but right now I am waiting to hear more from iSocialism. -Preston

At this point the wagons are Lyner and KingHitler - Wolfpacks, while talked about, has not been a wagon subject yet. So King Hitler was given a opportunity to explain himself, and... I am not sure he's really engaged us about it. With the 'random' vote, it still feels like he is giving up. KH: When you said you got a message "Nothing Happened" - is that verbatim what it said? -Preston

Emphasis mine - if you did not use your ability, why would you say that is why the result Samus saw could be different? On a night where you do not use your ability you should be the same as anyone else, and only if you used your ability that night should anything have possibly been different. So it feels like you were using your role as an explanation for Samus' different result. How do you reconcile what you said about your role affecting Samus' results then with saying now that you did not use your role at all? -Preston

King Hitler's main point in his favor remains that Lego vote. However it is VERY difficult for me to reconcile him actually lying about his role like that. I see no reason for a townie to lie in the first place. Even if his posts since being confronted are not what Kevin would expect a savvy scum to do, neither are they what I would have expected from a townie. I would have expected confusion over why he was being accused, not... giving up posts, and "What magic is this?" - a quote from Book 1's main bad guy. SO: King Hitler, this is your opportunity to speak up and explain the posts youve made, especially those since you were called out. Clarify and confirm your role, and what you did which night, and what results you were given that made you post the way you did. If you can back it up, that may carry some weight to reduce the suspicion on you. On the flip side, welcome back Lyner? Whatever happened to "I wont be posting much until weekends, RL stuff?"? Looks like you were lurking after all, to see yourself suddenly at 4 votes and needing to respond to it! But I'm glad you're here to speak up in your own defense at least. I agree with clearing or confirming the non-confirmed players before seeking a Godfather, if one exists - which does make me a little curious why Kevin was pushing Wolfpacks earlier. Let's not rush this until both KH and Lyner have had more of a say... if someone hammers Lyner and he proves town, we'll be fairly certain scum are on that wagon. -Preston

The speed with which people are accepting Lyner as a vote alternative today is... interesting. There's not much that can be said about him (other than inactivity) beyond what iSoc points out: Lyner was not on lego's wagon or was not on AbT's wagon, and instead placed a vote on KH during the AbT lynch. Lyner remains one of those who have not been investigated and per earlier I do not fully trust his semi frequent excuses for inactivity... but at this point we have four votes on him that have been placed nearly back-to-back, including Mazuurek's only post of the current day. iSoc - started the wagon KevinH - Another list with Lyner as odd player out, after previously shifting from KingHitler to Wolfpacks. Finster - Joins in Mazuurek - Joins in When I see votes shift this fast I tend to think there's a scum in there somewhere jumping onto a 'safe' wagon, and it makes me leery. ONE MORE VOTE will end the day. I suggest we be careful about hammering Lyner until we're sure that is what we want to do. Personally I still find King Hitler more suspicious due to the contradictions and his 'giving up' posts. At minimum if he is not today's lynch, please investigate him tonight to try and settle the matter. -Preston

Can I get some clarification on this SM? It's been a while since I got to play scum, but are you saying that scum players are provided a flavor name that is mod guaranteed to be a safe claim...? Something like, "You are really (bad guy) but may safely claim as (good guy)." If so, then I am abruptly more suspicious of King Hitler's insistence on his character name sounding innocent. That aside - so in brief KevinH thinks Mazuurek is town because Ali (scum) was willing to lynch him. Okay, I can see that argument - not a guaranteed clearing, but more than nothing. Lyner, Finster, King Hitler, Sister Midnight, Mazuurek have all not been investigated yet. Of those I have a good feeling about Finster and SM, which leaves Lyner, King Hitler, and Mazuurek. Kevin has a positive feeling about Mazuurek per above. If we cut him out, that leaves Lyner and King Hitler on the list of those not yet investigated that need attention. Kevin wants to add Wolfpacks back to the list due to his argumentative posting style; I don't fully have a problem with that as I wouldn't be surprised at a godfather in play, but I would am more inclined to run down Lyner and King Hitler before doubling back over to second-guess the already investigated results. Also want to note that Lyner posted again that he will be away until this weekend; I know RL happens but it still feels like a perfect cop-out to escape being discussed for the rest of the day. I remain suspicious of King Hitler, as did Samus previously. Lynching KH would also remove one of those Kevin has not yet investigated, so tonight he could move closer to full coverage with confirming Mazuurek, Lyner, SM or Finster - though I believe the latter two are town at this point. As contradictory as Wolfpacks has been, I am not sure if I'm ready to see that as enough to override the investigation result on him yet and put him before King Hitler's demonstrated lie - as Kevin noted earlier, Lynch All Liars is not a bad strategy. -Preston

On phone so I'll be brief. Earlier Kevin said he would be inclined to vote for KH because of inconsistencies, and now not anymore - what changed between posts? Mafiascum notes commuter is a plausible fake claim, and I can see why-nothing observable or provable, especially if you claim you've used your one shot already and can't do it again. Kevin gives us a good way that scum could have spun being called out on the lie, but a newer player may not have been able to think of something like that and panic or give up. Because he didn't stretch to prove his innocence isn't necessarily pro town to me. The main factor against voting KH remains his legoboy vote, which Kevin calls out. So who else should we be considering?

Ugh, I was hoping it wouldnt be either Samus or Kevin who were killed last night - a WIFOM theory on the potential a doctor is on play, that to target either of the 'known' townies would risk having their kill blocked. RIP Samus. It's good to get confirmation about Ali and Kevin's sanity edge case. Which leaves us with King Hitler... who frankly seems to have given up. I am a little curious that Kevin did not go to confirm KH last night, given he was so uncertain of the rationale yesterday. I saw Kevin's post about how he would have expected scum to play (or not play) and explain away the contradiction, but not everyone can spin words like that. I was also kicking around the scenario that Kevin's leading us to Ali is a scum sacrificial move, meant to prove Kevin town until the end of the game. The only corroboration we have of his role (aside from Ali's scumminess) is Samus' observation on who he targeted that one night, and Samus is gone now. I dont think this is a LIKELY scenario, but I do want to be cautious here and make sure it is said aloud. So who remains... King Hitler - per lying/contradiction, suspected to be scum Finster Baby - Strongly felt to be town KevinH - Apparently proven town sane cop. With Ali's flip he definitely started a wagon on a proven scum. Preston - Me, Town (Why would I say otherwise?). Also investigated as town by Kevin iSocialism - Kevin investigated as Town. Otherwise uncertain about them. Lyner - Uncertain Wolfpacks - Kevin investigated as Town, but argumentative and Sister Midnight - Seems pro town, if new. Mazuurek - Short posts and lurking, not taking seriously? Of that list, I'd push for King Hitler today and then... well it'll depend on what happens tonight I guess. We can expect Kevin will get at least one more investigation out so long as his protection holds. We still might have to worry about there being a Godfather in play... wouldn't it be crazy if KH was that? Actually, we should probably talk about scenarios why scum could have missed their kill that night. Off the top of my head: 1. Doctor targeted someone and they were protected. No doctor has come forward (wisely), as to do so would mean the end of their usefulness. 2. Jailer targeted scum, who could not perform the kill. I specify Jailer because the townie would not know for certain that their target was scum - they could have been the intended target that was saved instead. A town roleblocker would have been able to speak up about what they found because it would be more obvious, and none has. 3. Scum targeted someone with Bulletproof. This can either be a townie, or perhaps the "Mafia Traitor" possibility. 4. Scum simply didn't turn in a result by the end of the night. Given that Scum targeted Samus instead of Kevin, I'm inclined to believe it was not option 4 - they were actually blocked by SOMETHING, so they didn't go with the obvious kill out of fear of losing their shot again. On that note - we've seen two scum goons thus far, and no scum power roles at all. Because Kevin got a result last night, that implies their role does not include 'roleblocker' - I'd have expected them to block him if so. So what could they have...? -Preston

You confirmed that Kevin targeted who he said he targeted on Night 3, and iSocialism confirmed that he is a student as Kevin claimed. It's almost impossible for Kevin to be scum at this point - however Finster's comment is exactly what has me cautious (though not about Finster himself): I'm one of the two Kevin says he investigated, and I know my own towniness - so to me at least I already have confirmed that Kevin is not an insane cop. The remaining options are Sane cop, Sane cop fooled on AbT by Framer, or Scum with a role whose targeting Samus was able to confirm (which would be a truly impressive feat). The problem is that AbT's lynch will not be definitive due to the possibility of that framer, unlikely though it might be. Hopefully I am just overthinking this and AbT will flip scum and everything is proven, but if AbT flips town and people assume insane cop as the second test, we risk following it with a second mis-lynch before we realize there are other options. We have a good buffer of people alive now, and the only way it feels like we can lose is if we get several mis-lynches in a row... which is why I am a bit cautious here when I see a reaction like Finster's. I may be splitting hairs here, and hopefully the situation will not be that complex; I just can't ignore the need to be more specific about what AbT's lynch will or won't mean. I agree we should not have to wait until Wednesday for this day to end, the only question is which wagon to start with. I personally think King Hitler is more 'certainly' scum due to being caught in his lie, and feel that we may get more information about the scum from seeing whatever role he ended up with. But if you would rather AbT be our first test case then I can swap my vote to help make that happen. Vote: Ali Bin Turban Now you only need one vote to hammer and end the day, if you choose to. I would prefer that last vote be Samus, the only 100% confirmed town. -Preston

Less time to post tonight, but to follow up: Interesting to see Ali voting for King Hitler. Scum turning on each other, or something else? It's a little weird to see King Hitler saying he is LIKING the way today is going - after his flavor-seeming quote. Which, I think, was Prof. Quirrell in the book? Definitely one of the bad guys. If Ali is a vanilla townie, then I agree with iSoc that he has nothing to lose by stating his character name line. If he is actually scum, he will find this more difficult. KH's role fakery I cannot see serving any meaningful purpose as a townie, so that seems a fairly solid scum-tell to me. I would have no objection to voting for him over Ali to test out the framer theory. The alternative is to lynch Ali and test Kevin more directly. I'm good with either one. What is strange is that while writing this post, I thought of one edge-case scenario where Kevin could be scum and Ali is town without needing a framer, as follows: 1) KevinH has some sort of a Mafia investigative role, and targeted iSocialism last night - Samus confirmed this. 2) A scum godfather is in play, and was told as part of their role PM what they would show up as - i.e. Gryffindor Student or Helpful Hogwarts Staff - telling them terms to enable a valid-seeming fakeclaim. This scenario is far-fetched, but in light of Ali voting for King Hitler the brainstorm seems warranted. like this I think it is worth at least speaking it aloud. Lynching Ali is a very direct way to test this - if he flips scum then Kevin is proven and there was no framer needed (though one could still exist). If Ali flips town then 'what if' scenarios are going to pop up, whether there's a framer or some other explanation. And for a second mid-post brainstorm - there's actually another scenario why Ali might be wanting KH lynched first if they are both scum, and that is if Ali is the "Mafia Encryptor" that allows them to daytalk. If there are three scum left alive, they might want to save the remaining two their ability to coordinate tomorrow. Though if there actually is a fourth scum... who would it be? I guess the takeaway from this is, let's settle on which of these two scum candidates to lynch today - and before we finalize the lynch, let's think in advance about what will happen if each somehow flips town instead. -Preston

You crazy people who can get back to the thread this soon after it opens That said, awesome that we got a night without a death... and doubly so for the claimed information. This shakes things up, so let's get down to it... First and foremost, I am removing my FoS on Finster and moving instead to a HARD FoS on King Hitler. And not just for what Finster quoted above: I'm calling shenanigans. According to MafiaWiki: Emphasis mine. I interpret this as meaning a Commuter basically can't be touched at night. Mod feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I believe Finster is correct on that, and to double down on it: 1-shot commuter... and claims that it might be why Samus's role was different. If you didnt use your role, it should not have done anything to affect Samus on Night 2. But then you claim you tried to commute on Night 3? How many shots again? I think we may have found our second scum right here. And the fact that Finster pointed out what he did, along with Samus's result on Night 3, exonerates Finster in my eyes. Because I don't want the Ali wagon to immediately reach its end and kill the day (and because I still want to be skeptical of Kevin's roleclaim due to how 'too good to be true' it seems), I'm casting my vote for King Hitler: Vote: King Hitler And then we have Kevin's roleclaim. 1) He referred to me MUCH earlier as a Gryffindor Student, and I can confirm now that it is accurate. I was not sure how to interpret it before; flavor, a guess, etc? But this has helped now somewhat. 2) Samus (confirmed town) has confirmed Kevin's target last night is as presented, which Kevin could not have faked. And iSocialism has confirmed the result as well. 3) Kevin points at Ali, and acknowledges that either a Framer may be in play or he could be an 'Insane' cop. 3a) Per mafiawiki, 'Insane' cop is one that returns inverted results - scum as town, town as scum - and it is NOT random. Random cop is not in TW's game list. For this to be Kevin's case, BOTH iSocialism and I would have to be scum. And per above, I think we've found a scum in King Hitler's role contradiction... so unless we want to think there are FOUR scum in this game size, that rules out both iSoc and I together. 3b) Framer is not impossible, and could indeed lead to Kevin-As-Town returning an invalid result on Ali. 3c) Also want to point out that if we have a Mafia Godfather in play, iSoc could still be scum by passing this claimed investigation. Technically so could I, though obviously I say that I am not. I want to be cautious here, but since we did NOT lose anyone last night we are currently at 11 alive, of which 2 or 3 are scum. This means we are NOT at Lynch-Or-Lose, which means that if Kevin were scum falsifying his result to individually point out Ali - even hedging his bet with Framer/Insane Cop - he would likely be lynched tomorrow if Ali turned out to be town. So for Kevin to pull this as a scum fake move right now would not seem to make any sense; he is linking his towniness to the validity of Ali proving scum, with a slim escape path if it turns out to be false. So I am not sure I can see a scenario where Kevin could realistically be scum like this. If someone else can, please elaborate. My other question revolves around the number of roles being claimed now. By my count we have Samus, Finster, Kevin, and KH's fake-looking commuter claim. How many roles would we expect to be in the game - and with one scum (generic goon) dead, what else could we expect on the scum side? They don't seem to have done much with it; one must be performing the kill (or attempting to), while the other does... what? -Preston

Clarification for above: based on what I've seen, it looks like Finster referred to their role and didn't follow though on it. Teased half claims like that are suspicious for me. I mentioned on earlier posts that I have been looking for the days half claims to resolve, and this is one of them.

Difficult to type or quote on phone, but this is the line I have referred to Finster. This is a very strange thing to say if you'd simply didn't have a role at all, and it happened around the time samus teased their role too. I saw both as half claims to watch. I mentioned this as notable in previous posts, so it should not be a surprise to you at this point. - Preston

Final Addendum (for now): Samus, please get the rest of your thoughts on the town out before the night happens. Odds are good you're a target tonight due to your role and proven towniness - and we do NOT know if we have a doctor this game. If we are still able to post in the evening I will do so then.

With today being a Monday, I would not expect to see a lot of posts by noon CN time when deadline hits. I think this is detrimental to us, because Lyner and KH have just brought Rafay to 5 votes while Mazuurek is at 3. Even if Rafay votes Maz now, it'll take two more in addition to him to overcome that, or require someone to switch from Rafay to Maz to shift the wagons. I'd like to at least give time for people to respond to the tie being broken before the day ends. @TW: Can we get today's deadline moved back to update (midnight) CN time instead of noon? It would give people the evening hours to respond, in light of people being at work today. Looking at the wagons themselves based on KevinH's unofficial vote count and updating with the last two votes, We can't expect Wolfpacks to vote because they have claimed they will be away for a while. I know life happens, but it still strikes me what a devilishly good defense that would be to not be involved at the end of the day. I could throw my vote onto Mazuurek and leave the door open for the wagons to shift if people choose to do so.... but between Rafay and Mazuurek I am not sure either is really scummy, just inactive. Even assuming both are town, I don't know who we could depend on LESS... and the fact that I am having to consider they could realistically both be town is frustrating. Mazuurek seems to not be taking the game seriously; gone all of Day 2, and returns today with a pattern that seems random at best. Rafay was away all of Day 2, suddenly returned at start of Day 3 to post a few times and then vanish again. Is he lurking now, or will he say anything now that he is the current lynch target? A part of me still does not like/trust the way the Rafay wagon built up. KevinH voted Mazuurek and no one joined him; iSoc voted Rafay, and Kevin shifted to Rafay citing his #2 choice since his #1 choice Mazuurek was not going anywhere. And was quickly followed by Mazuurek bringing Rafay to 3 before anyone else got that far. But now we have wagons on both... if Kevin's #1 choice Mazuurek is now viable as a wagon over his #2 choice Rafay, why is his vote not there? Kevin's votes are increasingly worrying to me. As for Mazuurek - he voted SM, then after Kevin changed his vote off of Mazuurek and onto Rafay, he voted Rafay. And then has not done much since. So with EITHER of these wagons - what would they tell us? Particularly on the Rafay side I am not going to be inclined to let them shrug it off as "Oh we just went with an inactive" - there are scum votes in play too. I'd put good odds at both scum votes being on whichever wagon wins, which is currently looking like Rafay's. Rafay Wagon: iSocialism I dont have a strong feel for, KevinH's too-impartial analysis and voting for #2 instead of #1 has a scummy feel to it, Maz I can't get a bead on, Lyner and KH just bandwagoned back-to-back at the end, but KH I had previously thought better of due to his D2 shift *FROM RAFAY* onto Lego. Mazuurek Wagon: Finster remains a person of interest to me and an unresolved roleclaim. SM I have a good townie vibe from. Ali seems to be doing analysis to try and find scum, despite the earlier disagreement on Day 3 that really was a distraction. The only 'known' townie is Samus, who is voting King Hitler - who is on the Rafay wagon. Samus suspects *both* KH's - Kevin and King. I am concerned about KevinH and Finster both, and they are on opposite wagons! I can't spend much more time this morning waffling back and forth, so I will vote the one who is currently disturbing me the most... Vote: KevinH Samus has voiced concern against KevinH as well, which is one sign - but also I keep getting a feeling of contradiction from him even if it is hard to put my finger on. He seems too impartial, even at Day 3. I know this vote is unlikely to shift anything. It's possible a wagon will form if Samus joins me and others decide to jump on it as well, which would also reveal information. But moreover I am registering my thoughts and vote before the night, so that if I die Kevin and Finster will both be people of interest. If Rafay flips town, it will add more concern to Kevin. If Rafay flips Scum (and I survive) I will likely believe Kevin far more from here on out - but at this point I am not confident Rafay will flip scum. I'm hoping TW will give us the extra hours tonight so people can actually have full use of the hours up to deadline, but we'll see. If nothing else, I am no longer on the sidelines with this vote. -Preston

I should note that commuter is one of those roles that is VERY easy to fakeclaim - impossible to demonstrate on demand, and only possible to disprove if someone got a result on the night you claim you commuted. The question I would have is if the 'Ron' name is /too/ main character to be included in our list of roles... TW's been posting paraphased snippets from the book periodically, and if we had one of the main protagonist Trio die then it'd make that quite difficult... it is possible he didnt assign that name. So i don't think we would gain anything by rattling off flavor names, as it would only serve to give scum a list of "dont claim as X to avoid conflict" names. With that said - Mazuurek does not seem to have much of a defense at all, or even much of an understanding of the game. Normally when a lurker is accused of being scum, it's on the suspicion that the scum KNOWS their best tactic is to lie low and avoid making waves. I'm not sure Mazuurek is thinking that much into it, to where his day 2 lurking would be a scum tell... but at the same time I am not sure if we can/should rely on him. Wolfpacks posting that he's going to be away/inactive is a bit concerning, as it basically gives him cover to duck out of day 3... I know life happens, but how easy to say you're going to be unavailable and then just watch from the sidelines? Also, thanks for the answer by way of pointing to TW's prior game... so Mafia could be anything and not just those with the prefix. I'd still be interested in seeing Finster's teased claim resolve; either he is town and he has already painted a target on himself, or he's scum who is trying to dangle an incomplete claim to avoid focus; I can't see why a townie would START to claim on a day and then not follow through - either keep your silence or do it, in my opinion. Unless you're a Bulletproof or something and want to try to draw the scum shot, I guess. We've got a day left and then it's Monday... and I dont see a lot of AM talk happening then as it's a work day, so no repeat of Day 2's end and last-minute rush. Do you think we could ask for it to go until CN update time instead of CN noon time, so we'd have that evening to work with? -Preston

Looks like KH posted while I was reading back and writing my own post. So first off, he responded with his claim - commuter, huh. I can see why he'd feel it was a useless skill because it's defensive instead of info gathering, and he has already used it up. It would also explain why TW gave Samus a different result initially, or at least it is a possible rationale behind it. Obvious question then is how believable this claim is. Curiously he also includes his character name... doing so risks collision with someone else if they had that name, so ironically I am more inclined to believe this is real - however it is not conclusive. Let's get some other peoples' thoughts on the claim first, then go from there; especially if someone has a counterclaim to the name Ron being used. -Preston

I can't disagree with Wolfpacks that I've been inactive lately - I give full credit to Pokemon Go and Evolve Stage 2 releasing basically back to back Not a great excuse, but eh. However we've got the rest of this weekend and Samus's roleclaim to put together a decision! TW has effectively confirmed Samus as town, which is notable in itself. I am trying to puzzle out the meaning behind the results Samus posted and TW 'clarified', however; it seems curious that TW would begin with one convention and then switch to another. The tracker wiki page includes the "did not target anyone" language TW used for night 1, so it's possible he referred to that then. But on night 2 TW used something different instead of just saying KH targeted no one. From TW's post it sounds like both are intended to be negative results (and not the kind of negative that reveals a ninja), but do you think that excludes Samus from having been roleblocked or similarly prevented from acting Night 2? This got me looking at the roles TW has listed and am curious; he lists several roles with a Mafia prefix, are those the ONLY roles that can be mafia? I see things like Framer and Roleblocker/Rolestopper on the list that dont make a lot of sense to have as town. Given that Samus has confirmed we have a tracker, what sort of roles from TW's list could he even be used to find beyond the mafia making a night kill? When I played last I dont remember half of what's on that list. If memory serves we have two people remaining who teased their claims during the day, Finster and KingHitler. With the latter being a subject of Samus's claim and vote, I think we may want to wonder what role he would describe as useless in his earlier post. And I still am very curious about Finster. Let's get some more discussion going here, but I also want to point out that Mazuurek seems far more /active/ today... albeit with not much said beyond a vote on SM and subsequently on Rafay, joining the wagon there. I also was somewhat stunned when he replied to Ali's question about what he was doing so flippantly... it could be just newbieness, but I don't know. I'll try to look back some more tomorrow when I'm more awake, but please keep the discussion going... -Preston

I'm a little surprised the discussion about Ali's interpretation of Rhizo and SM's votes went on as long as it did. The clarification helped, but I am not sure it's taken us anywhere useful. I did however raise an eyebrow at Ali's response to the hypothetical question I dropped onto the end of my last post: I don't think Rhizo's position on the wagon was enough to get him killed. He was a great asset to us and a confirmed town to that. I've mentioned three possible reasons previously: He was active enough, able to hunt down scums and was confirmed town (he hammered the vote). Only one that would fit this better is Samus. But maybe you have some better idea as of why was he killed? I threw out the 'fun question' to see what discussion it would generate, and moreso from others instead of from Ali himself - i.e. to see what scum pairings they might spin based on that premise. No one else took it anywhere that I saw, but Ali's last line felt a bit defensive/lashing out. Perhaps that is just his style, but it did make me pause. Putting Ali aside - KevinH has switched to Rafay so he can have two votes on a wagon, abandoning his earlier metrics-based vote. It seems strange to shift this early just for sake of building a wagon; if you felt conviction enough for Mazuurek, what shook it and made Rafay the better option? Mazuurek... I THINK he just voted for SM? O.o And no one else seems to have noticed this. Combined with his earlier "I'm sorry for deciding not to vote" statement, I'm not sure what's going on here. However Kevin still swapped his vote away to Rafay instead, even after this. Mazuurek is listed as 'other' by iSoc and Ali says there isnt much to say about him... that worries me a bit to have him remain this undefined. Wolfpacks has posted for time - saying he has something to say but he's tired. It's possible, but stalling doesnt always sit well with me. Finster at least is saying he's looking at KevinH while suspecting Wolfpacks - gives us something specific to work with. There are a lot of moving parts right now that make it hard to follow. I'd like to hear more scum/town thoughts from Rafay, since he now leads with 2 votes, and if Wolfpacks has something to say then let's hear it. And we still have the lingering half-claims that need to at some point resolve. iSoc wants Samus to wait for last - but the longer we wait, the less discussion time we leave ourselves on what Samus thinks. When yesterday ended with Lego proving scum, I think everyone knew Samus would be someone to watch for Day 3 because of him starting that wagon all but proving him town; whatever he says is going to have a lot of weight. Once both Samus and Finster resolve their teased claims, I suspect that is when the day's discussion will really begin. -Preston