Sharing is Caring

This setup was designed for the Open Setup Design Contest 2015.
 
Roles

• 1 Mafia Y-shot Rolecop
• 1 Mafia Y-shot Doctor
• 1 Mafia Y-shot Framer

• 1 Town X-shot Cop
• 1 Town X-shot Jailkeeper
• 1 Town X-shot Vigilante
• 7 VTs

Mechanics

• Daystart
• "X" starts as 4, and decreases with each shot spent by one of the power roles.
• "Y" starts as 4, and decreases with each shot spent by one of the power roles.
• If X or Y goes below 0 in one night, all actions by that team will fail and no shots will be spent.
• Every time a Town Power Role dies, X increases by 1.
• Every time a Mafia Member dies, Y increases by 1.

---

• Ali bin Turban Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2
• Chaplain of Death, Vanilla Townie, killed Night 4
• Fermion Canik, Mafia Y-Shot Framer, lynched Day 3
• Imran Ehsan, Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 2
• iSocialism, Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 5
• King Hitler, Town X-Shot Vigilante, killed in the end-game
• Lyner, Vanilla Townie, killed Night 1
• Mandarijn, Town X-Shot Cop, killed Night 3
• Rafay, Mafia Y-Shot Role Cop, lynched Day 4
• Rhizoctonia, Vanilla Townie, killed Night 4
• Robert2424, Vanilla Townie, lynched Day 1
• The Warrior, Town X-Shot Jailkeeper, killed Night 2
• Whitebeard, Mafia Y-Shot Doctor, survives to the end

Mafia Win!

 

---

Vanilla Townie PM:

Welcome, [Player Name], you are a Vanilla Townie.
Abilities:
Your weapon is your vote, you have no night actions.
Win condition:
You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

 
Rules

• During the Day phase, each player may speak and vote inthread.
• If a player receives the majority of the available votes during the Day, they are lynched.
• At deadline, a player with half-majority will be lynched; the first player to reach the most votes over half-majority will be lynched in the event of a tie.
• You may vote No Lynch.
• After the Day, the game goes to Night.
• The game thread is closed during the Night. The Mafia may speak to each other at Night.
• All Active Roles may submit actions via PM at Night.
• The Mafia can, as a faction, kill one player at Night.
• After the Night, the game goes to Day.
• All dead players (lynched or killed) can no longer participate in the game.
• Basic rules for maintaining the integrity of the game thread are in effect (i.e. players may not quote their Role PMs, nor may they discuss the game outside the game thread unless otherwise permitted, etc.)
• The game is won when only one faction remains in the game, or nothing can prevent the same.
• Mass role-claiming is allowed.

Game Days will last as many real-life days as there are players alive.
Game Nights will last 48 hours but will include at least one weekday.

unvote

 

Looks like i have to go back and analyze the walls

No, I'm not defending TW that he's town or Scum, I've already stated I'm not sold either way.  What I am is me being sick and tired of you and Imran's pompous ass attitude every game.  Every game you both do the same shit, and every game you act as if you're the only one who knows how to play this game.  It's pretty obvious that whatever TW says you literally are going to spin however you like and not actually listen to it, all you do is look for a way to make it scummish to fit your theory.  You suspect someone and rather then actually listen to what the say, you just look to turn it around on them, it's obvious clear.  It doesn't take a genius to spot it, and how hard you're looking to get him lynched is proof enough.

 

1. You asked why I've suspected TW and not Canik and I've answered:

 

In my eyes there's a big difference between Canik and TW. Canik is new, may have missed some posts, etc (so he got benefit of a doubt at the beginning). Secondly when you ask Canik why has he chosen to support it, he starts explaining it, shows some numbers. He's working on the idea, putting some effort. Maybe I've weakness for people that use reason, but Canik feels genuine in his efforts, even though I don't agree with them. Finally as I said, breadcrumbing is to little for me to believe someone's a scum...and I believe there's nothing more we could accuse him of (please correct me if I'm wrong).

As for TW, I don't really know why he supports it and it's suspicious to me. I'm trying to ask him about it and I get some evasive answers, emotional trips and accusations.

 

You may not like my answer, but saying I didn't answer it is a bit of stretch isn't it?

Funny thing is that I've asked you the same, why haven't you called TW. And what did you say? "I must of missed that whole interaction". Nice evasion and I've took it as genuine at that time.

 

 

I stated my reasoning, that I missed it.  You on the other hand obviously didn't miss either, yet you only suspect one.  I had prior suspicion of Canik/Fermion, and my reason for voting him wasn't for breadcrumb idea, it just adds to it.  It's one thing to give Canik the benefit of the doubt day 1 about it, it's another to keep doing so when he keeps bringing it up.  There's benefits and cons to the idea in general...neither is great for either scum or town with regards to breadcrumbs...and my suspcion of Canik/Fermion didn't start because of the breadcrumb...yours on TW's did, and you've only tried to go from there.

 

2. You said "You only suspected him (TW) because he said Canik's idea (not even TW's idea) had merit." This one is a clear lie. I've clearly stated there are multiple reasons why I'm suspicious of TW and supporting breadcrumbs idea was just one of the reasons. I guess you must of missed that whole interaction too  . 

 

 

It's not a lie, up until he made that comment you didnt suspect him.  You never said you were suspicious of him prior to that.

 

Canik we've been through this and it's a bad tactic. You might want to check my post again if you've missed it: http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-1/page-4?do=findComment&comment=856635 .

 

The Warrior, on 29 May 2016 - 11:49, said:http://ironcentral.org/community/public/style_images/carbon_orange/snapback.png

I think that Canik's proposal has merit. Regardless of how we each decide to post our thoughts the one thing that is clear is that we need any info that our cop gets and have it on the table in case he is killed at night. The idea of everybody posting one name each day and saying "town" or "scum" along with it would leave that breadcrumb trail for if/whenever our cop is targeted. With every single one of us posting a name each day there is a very high likelihood of more than one person giving a correct guess on a town or scum. It could help the scum narrow down the possible list of candidates to be the cop but even if it takes them two days to find him that is at least two more days worth of information that we have at our disposal.

More than anything we need everyone to actively post their thoughts each day. We need as much conversation as possible to analyze people's posts and to weed out the scum.

I am satisfied with Canik's responses so far so I will be removing my vote on him.

Unvote Canik.

I am not satisfied with Whitebeard's posts however. What is going on there? They continue to be suspicious to me.

Vote Whitebeard.

But you mister are now added to my suspects list. This is a terrible idea (even though I took my part in conceiving it) and it was already discussed why. I understand that Canik didn't get as much time as we did to think about it and also could missed some posts, but you on the other hand were taking part in that discussion and still are trying to support it. 

 

 

Please tell me where I'm wrong?  This was the first time you ever suspected him, and it was after he said  Canik's idea had merit.  So please tell me where before this you suspected him?  Please tell me before this, where you voted him?  The only reason you first started to suspect him was because of his "merit" comment, but yet you refuse to acknowledge you haven't done the same for Canik, even after he continues to push that idea.   So to act as if this wasn't a reason he's suspicious is a complete and utter lie from you.  The words are right there in the quoted text...he was added to your suspect list because of him saying it had merit and trying to support it.  So don't give me it.

 

3. "You call out TW for saying for a cop to invesitagte him.  You're already looking for a way to setup him as scum no matter what". So you're also thinking setting up a cop investigation in a game with framer is a good idea? Pointing out it benefits scum is "beyond hard"? Also what's about that "fixating"? What kind of argument is that? How do you differentiate between someone fixating and someone that's suspicious and is looking for evidence?

 

It's not hard to see when someone becomes fixated, they act like you where you don't actually take in what anyone says, you only look to dissect it to somehow make it scummish, which is what you've been doing.  I already said this in my first paragraph of this response about how you don't do this.  The cop thing is just another way of you doing that, as you already said no matter the outcome of the cop you're not going to believe it, so that's what I'm getting at.  Your sold already no matter what outcome comes of it, and sold no matter what TW or anyone says you suspect.  The mere fact you've thought how the scum would play this seems like you obviously have been discussing it.  

 

4. Fermion / Robert case - you've clearly missed context (have you?). I've voted on Fermion but dropped him after his explanations because I didn't find him guilty. What I meant was that we (all - players and moderator) have make a mistake (yes me too...I've admitted I've made a mistake). We got two guys that were not going to play and a replacement who we could give a fresh start by letting him replace Robert. Instead we took out the fresh start and let him take over a guy that was suspected by some of the players. Surely it would be great if I've realized that before we made a move. I didn't and I've admitted that. It would also be great if someone else would realize and post that argument...but noone has.

 

 

And yet, he had suspicion, more suspicion then Robert and could of gave us information, and yet you didn't do anything about it.  You voted someone no one was going to lynch.  You could of looked to lynch someone to give information, but you did not, your vote on Lyner was as good as a vote on Robert, it was a wasted that you knew wasn't going to get lynched.  It still would of been better to kill off Canik/Fermion even after Canik replaced him then Robert an inactive that hopefully we got a replacement for and could go from there, but you didn't.  

 

 

6.  You said: "I played as scum in another, and I know many wanted to get the likes of ABT/Imran/Mand out quickly for their experience and activity...and yet that didn't happen.  I find it more suspicious you two especially weren't lynched...instead of someone who wasn't all the active."

 

So you say that when you were a scum many of you wanted to take Me/Imran out and yet we weren't killed. And now you think we should be taken out but still are alive and that's suspicious...wow, just look at that...it's all like in that other games where you were a scum. I don't really know what were you trying to say, other than shooting yourself in the foot.

 

 

Imran was eventually killed and both you and Imran were unanimous on wanting to get out first.  The only reason Imran wasn't the first night was because he came out with his "holding grudges," crap and the group felt if he ended up dead first night people may think that could be why, someone out for a grudge.  So we went KH because he made indications he might be a cop.  You were eventually killed I believe too.  Sorry, I was in the chat lobby, I know which two  the scum wanted out first and they were you both.  Imran only squeaked by because of his calling out everyone about grudges or he would of been N1.  When that game is over, I'll be glad to give you link to that chat and see I'm spot on.  So yea, i know what I'm talking about, i was there.

 

I think that's enough. I'm very surprised because after all that days of your nice posting I see old Rhizo coming out. It seems that you've lost your temper after I've started prodding TW and came with the very same emotional crap (no offense) that contains no logic whatsoever. It's also really telling that you don't find any of TW's actions suspicious (even calling for cop in framer's game is justified for you and I'm "fixated scum" for calling him out on this ). I'm 100% certain that TW and You (that's a shocker, I must admit) are scum buddies, as I've never seen anyone defending someone else so hard and in a such scummy fashion.

 

 

Lol, yea I'm nice Rhiz when I'm not suspecting you.  No, old Rhizo has come out because I'm tired of the same ol rehortic you both throw out each game, and this game, I am pretty certain you both are.  You can disregard all I have to say as much as you want, I don't care.  That's all you look to do, just say there's no logic in anything I say, it's emotional, etc.  You think you're the only thought that makes sense, and this game I'm sold you're scum and I'm not going call you out on it before the town loses.  Maybe you'll realize one day I'm not alone in being tired of the arrogant nature of you both.  I don't care if you look to lynch me buddy, maybe then people will take what I say and realize it's got merit and they'll lynch you scum.  If you think lynching me worries me, it doesn't.  No what's apparent is you and Imran are scum buddies and looking to push a lynch, and even more so Imran looking to find some reason to explain why you both wont be killed at night.  I'm not defending him(TW), I'm speaking up for anyone whose seen you not listen to someone's responses and instead look to just find a way to make them scummish when you think you have anyone, the only difference is this game it looks like your acting as the scum.  

 

And of course you will ignore Imran's comment.  If anyone else said that, you'd be on their shit quicker then flies on a horses ass.  Please tell me how it would be smart of a VT to look to indicate he's a VT on day 1, putting the RP's in more harms way.  Please tell me how it's better that a VT is known and is kept alive because the scum aren't worried about them then keeping their role hidden and hopefully take the death over a player with a power.  But you don't comment.  Anyone else, you'd be calling for their lynch, but since he's with you you're not.  Don't worry, I certainly suspect that you will once Imran comes on with some crap excuse for it and you'll be there to back him up.  I've gone through the posts, no where did Imran look to indicate that, nor you...and even if you did it would be the worst thing for town.  All it was, was a reason for people not to suspect you both when you're not killed at night, and a real bad choice by Imran.  If the rest of town can't see that, then the rest of town want to lose...which it won't be my fault.  

 

I've proved myself town plenty this game, if people want to suspect me, go ahead, if I get lynched I get lynched....hopefully then people will see the reality of the truth.  I'm not worried 1  bit...I'm as pro town as it gets.  I wasn't sold on TW, but the fact that you and Imran have gone out of your way to push a lynch on him, and how you've looked to literally turn every word TW has said into being scum is either a scum working over time or a townie who doesn't care what the person they suspect says, it doesn't make a difference, there's no point in trying to argue with someone who won't take anything as anything other then scummish.  If you think you coming at me bothers me, it doesn't...it just adds fuel to the fire if I got lynched.

 

I welcome any votes on me.  If it will help people then start seeing the light of what I'm trying to point out, then all is welcome to lynch me.  I just hope afterwards, you don't buy into anymore of the BS Imran/ABT look to spew and start lynching them.  I've made my claims of 2 scum...the 3rd is up in the air, but my first two guesses would be Canik/Whitebeard...but who knows it could be someone who hardly posts.  But with it down to a single scum...I like the odds for town. 

Unvote.

 

Going to read through the walls of text and see where this goes.

 

From what I've skimmed, AbT and Imran seem to have come out very scummish. I have been on the fence about TW for a while and they do bring up a good point of TW essentially wasting the cops action just to leave us guessing whether the framer had targeted him as well or not.

 

My guess, while completely off the wall, Imran, AbT, and TW are scum. By leading a rally against one of their own and once he's killed, he'd be confirmed a scum, it'd make them look like townies. Safe for a few more days, grab a few more kills. Put the targets on other people while the town back tracks and tries to discover who the other 2 scum are.

 

As far as voting Rafay because he's inactive. I stated in my original reasoning that it looks scummy to barely post and the one post you make on D2 is voting for a semi-active player, referring to him as lurking. While I agree Robert had no posts to go off of, Rafay did make a post. It would've made more sense to vote Isocialism or Whitebeard if we're trying to get the lurkers to come out, not someone who has been contributing since the beginning. And I would've made that vote whether the target was me or not. However, granted these recent posts, I have a strong feeling we have at least 2 scums involved. I'd rather my vote go towards someone who is actively showing scummy behavior than someone who made a scum-like post or two.

 

For right now, I won't place a vote just yet. I'm stuck between Imran and AbT as the more scummy target, but I want to give Imran the opportunity to respond to Rhizo's comments above.

This will be my last long post for awhile hopefully.  I am sold on Imran and won't be changing it after his comment.  The only way I will change is if ABT needs another vote, as they both are likely scum to me.  

 

So I'll eeborate more on exactly what I'm talking about.

 

You ask me why I didn't suspect TW when he supported the idea as well.  I already stated I missed this dialogue between both you and TW.  Since you pointed it out, I wasn't sold one way or other on TW, but your recent push makes me think more he is.  Now when it comes to Canik...I said early on, well before Canik came out supporting the idea I found both him and Whitebeard scummish, and was going to vote either of them.  Canik rehashing the whole breadcrumb idea was not the reason I voted him, but it certainly didn't help.  Imran also supported the idea after the holes were presented, and I even stated he was on my suspicious list but I wasn't sold on that.  So at most, if I saw TW's comments, I'd do the same as I would have with Imran, called him out for it and be suspicious but not sold one way or the other.  For that matter, if we were only going off the breadcrumb idea, Mandarijn and you could be just as much, one brought up the idea the other liked it...but I gave you both the benefit of the doubt because you may not have thought about it at all angles.  

 

The difference is, my suspicion of Canik didn't start at him liking the breadcrumbs idea, it was before that...your suspicion of TW only started when he said it had merit.  I'm not talking yet about what has come after, I'm talking about you first started being suspicious when he agreed it had merit.  Prove me wrong, as I don't think you can.

 

I'd also point out, TW wasn't the only one supporting the idea after the holes were pointed out.  As I already said, Imran was as well.  

 

I like Mandarijn's idea. With everyone posting there scum/town predictions it will be extremely hard for the scum to pinpoint in on the real cop. Some people may get things right even by random guessing. So its not like only the cop will have correct predictions. The scum wont know for sure who is just guessing and who has actual info. The results will only be for 2 nights (assuming the cop comes out on the 3rd day) so the scum wont have enough of a sample size to weed out the guesses from the correct info. I think this is a very good insurance policy for the town in that the night results from the cop will not get lost even if he gets killed before revealing them.

 

 

You didn't suspect him though for saying that after I pointed out the bad things about the idea.  If the first thing TW said that made you suspicious was agreeing with the idea, then why didn't you suspect or put pressure on Imran when he said that?  Again if that all it took for you. 

 

Now let's look into something else you said

 

I hate when people get really cheap and bring RL as an excuse: "I don't have time to play", "I don't care about this game anymore" ... yet they lurk on. That's the lowest scum can fall in order to save his hide

 

 

This I completely disagreed with, and think it's a bit low of you.  I for one know this...i for one dealt with this in two mafia games, and times will in this one.  I was forced to take time away I had with my wife (which at times is little) because I was being suspected in both games, and had I not taken the time I would of been lynched for sure.  I was a SK and a scum, but neither my roles were any reason for not posting or strategy, it was real life getting in the way.  So I have sympathy for people who have this happen to them.  Normally I'd let it go, but yet Imran was one to call me out for it in past games and made me take time away to do so, you were one of them, so I'm not so quickly to give something that was not given to me, understanding.  But yet...you make this remark and Imran has been inactive and not posting up til today, yet you didn't call him out or suspect him like you did with me and others in other games.  COD has had the same thing in this game, you haven't called him out either.  Why not?  Is somehow they different then me?  Is somehow their real life more important then mine was in the past?  Why you so understanding with them and not me?  

 

Now that we're done with that, let's get into the points I have made about you being fixated and looking to switch whatever TW says into something else.  You want to know why I don't suspect TW from your claims, because your evidence is pretty hollow, it merely reeks of desperation to push a lynch.

 

1. It started from his posting style - no substance in it. Just making sure to be seen around.

2. He turns out to be a supporter of that dangerous "breadcrumb" idea. When I point it out he comes with very evasive answer:

 

I don't care how we decide to do it ultimately. We just need activity, participation, and information. We need whatever information that the cop can provide. We can't afford to lose it before it can be shared because otherwise we literally have nothing but instinct to act on (or the slim chance of the jail keeper targeting the correct scum member at night and preventing a kill).
 

Just another hollow statement that we need to be active and cant afford to loose cop. And on top of it, TW does not care what we'll do. Well, I do care and I don't want us to act in a way that will make it easier for the scum.

 

1.  You suddenly now start saying his posts have no substance.  Yet no where in Day 1 did you ever even suggest that or call him out for that, you just suddenly did

2.  For someone who isn't trying to use the supporter of a breadcrumb idea, you sure keep bringing it up as a reason for a lynch. 

 

The second paragraph, you're literally trying to read way into something.  You say he has no substance, well let me point you to another persons post who has as much substance.

 

Take Mandarijn's first two posts on day 2

I guess we should start with pressuring the lurkers again...

 

Rafay, iSoc, Whitebeard! You guys need to participate more!!!

 

Let's pressure the lurkers!

 

Vote: iSoc

 

 

If you want to go off no substance and just wanting to be seen...Mandarijn's would be that.

 

By all means ABT, go ahead and continue your quest to have me lynched. I'm sure that the mafia will appreciate you wasting your time and everyone else's. The rest of the town on the other hand will not appreciate it.

 

That has scum written all around it. There's no arguments, no reasoning here. He's not even trying to discuss (like for instance Lyner did when I poked him), he's just evading with some emotional trick that's supposed to make me feel guilty for suspecting him.

 

 

Again, reading way into nothing.  

 

But then again, you bring up the same thing TW said, but a few posts later

 

"By all means ABT, go ahead and continue your quest to have me lynched. I'm sure that the mafia will appreciate you wasting your time and everyone else's. The rest of the town on the other hand will not appreciate it."

 

I don't see why a town would use this argument (desperate one, sure - desperate ones tend to make desperate moves). It has no discussion value, it's just an emotional attack. Town that's wrongly accused will try to explain his motives and reasoning because it's natural for him. He's not afraid because he's done nothing wrong - after all he's a town. Scum does not have that comfort (obviously he can't explain his motives) so he's prone to respond emotionally.

 

 

If we didn't get it the first time, now let's resay what we just said as seemingly more evidence.  And in fact, he seems to have to be afraid because you're the one going after him pushing the lynch.  How can you say town has nothing to worry about...he very well has something to worry about, you're trying your hardest to lynch him when I have yet to see him do anything that wrong besides be ok with breadcrumbs which means Canik and Imran should be as suspected as him.

 

Ali bin Turban: Seemed townie on day 1. I'm less certain now. We should definitely be analyzing people's habits and discussing them but that doesn't mean that we abandon strategy at the same time. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. Only scum would want us to get away from strategizing especially since they can't do so together during the day.
Could be either but I think this could be the first game we see ABT as scum.

 

Again, he's not even trying to reason as rational town would do. Rational town is never sure who's who. He'll rather show proofs of his innocence than strike blindly because he knows the risk. No, instead TW looks for an argument to hit me back. And he finds just one and really weak one and use it to come into conclusion I'm a scum. Why do I think it's weak? I believe my actions and participation speak for me (but if anyone has something against me, come out and speak, I'm not afraid to explain myself).

 

I'm looking for a scum. I'm probing people, poking them, because I don't know who they are. I'm not afraid to vote on someone just to put more pressure on him. What's TW's approach? Evade questions and strike back with accusation. At the same time he didn't even have balls to vote on me. Probably afraid to be the first one

 

I read this...when did he ever say you were scum.  He didn't say it, he said he's less certain now.  How many people have said something has made them less certain someone's town but not voted them?  I think there is some examples of this in this very game.  

 

My biggest suspect is for now TW (I agree with Lyner on that). I've already mentioned one of the reasons (at the beginning). I also find his posts suspicious in general. If you dig into them in order to get any substance there's not much to be found. Just some general truths and summaries

 

 

These are the ones I love from you and Imran, you both like to use the phrase, "I find someone's posts suspicious."  Yet it's a blanket statement every time, no where did you cite an example.  Imran has done the same with King Hitler on here..."I found some of his posts a bit scummy as well."  I mean you want to talk about no substance, how hard is it for someone to just say, "yea posts are scummy."  My posts maybe long, I at least try to point to examples.  Again, you never had a problem or mentioned a problem with TW before the breadcrumbs, after he said it had merit then you start slinging out about his past posts.  You weren't afraid to call out people for their posts or thoughts day 1...why if you were so suspicious of them didnt you do the same for TW?  

 

 

Secondly, I don't see you pressing people to post. Posting "People need to post more" or stating obvious facts "iSocialism is lurking, he could be a scum" is no pressure. That's just repeating what everyone thinks. What did you do about Lyner apart from writing "Lyner needs to post more" i one of your many summaries? Did it make Lyner post more? Or maybe it was me who prodded him and forced into more active stance? 

You're forced to be active, because everyone would notice your lurking instantly (it would be extremely odd for a generally active person to lurk) so you're active in a way that gives town little benefits.

 

 

If you're basing that as a reason to vote TW, why are you singling him out?  I've already linked 2 posts by Mandarijn who said exactly what you're describing, saying repeating what everyone thinks.  

 

Here's another by Mandarijn

 

Yeah, you're right, now we're doing shit. Everyone is being quiet (me included   ), this is not helping at all... We should still share our thoughts and play like normal. We need to continue playing like normal and accuse people and get everyone to talk as we can't rely on the cop, so the accusations and talking might be the only things we have...

 

My thoughts and accusations on everyone:

- Chaplain is more quiet than usual, normally he's one of the top posters

- Ali is playing like normal in my eyes (even though I've only played 1 game), could be town or scum. He would be smart enough to keep his playing style.

- Imran has been rather quiet, I have no read about him yet, so could be both. He seems to be pushing less than in other games though.

- TW: I don't know about him. He's always been scum before, so I'm not sure how he plays as a townie. Could be either...

- Rhizo has the same problem (was SK and scum), but he feels town to me for once

- Rafay is always suspicious to me, he got accused early on D1 and he actually tried to defend himself and became pretty active for a second. I don't remember him doing this in the other games we played. Now the accusations dropped and he's again just riding along... 

- KH and Whitebeard are new, not much there. If I had to say something I would say KH is town, Whitebeard could be either.

- Canik, also could be both, but I'm leaning towards town

- iSoc is not posting much AGAIN, so not much to go of there

 

So yeah, like always a lot of possible scums.    Now talk!

 

I'm also tempted to vote for Rafay, because it's Rafay, he's always suspicious and I wouldn't mind lynching him at all as he'll be little help all game. But I want to see some other guys post 1st...

 

 

His first paragraph was pretty much what all townies would think...it's not really helpful.  His list also doesn't really force anyone to post...yet you don't go after him.  His list is what probably most are thinking of each person without any real evidence one way or the other

 

Finally, you've been on Fermion's bandwagon (to be clear, I was 3rd), jumped as a 4th one  - quite a safe number, to stay away from the heat should he turn out not to be a town (coupled with that you were not pressing him). You're also constantly reminding us about Whitebeard. This is not much on it's own, but I'm mentioning that to show that If you turn out to be scum, those two are most likely to be confirmed townies (Canik for sure, Whitebeard less so).

 

 

Already stated, but I will say again.  A blatant stretch as a reason.  IMO someone jumping on 3rd is a lot safer number then #4 who would be the deciding vote on if he's lynched.  4 probably the least safest...case and point look at King Hitler.  Imran suspects him because he was #4 on the Robert vote...he didn't go after #3 or #2 or #1 on that.  Yet 3 is less safe then 4 in your eyes.  

 

I'll cut my responses not to make wall of text. What you propose is extremely bad idea. As a matter of fact you're literally asking cop to waste his action.

What is investigation worth with the knowledge that framer can alter its results if he pleases so? If you get scum result, you'll argue you got framed. If you get town result I won't believe (and probably not only me) it because of the blatant setup that is possible here

 

 

Now there is a chance a framer could make TW's townie turn to scum....but to your response if he gets town you wont believe him has already been proved wrong.  Kevin has since stated a framer can't turn a scum into town...so if he in fact came out town, he is town. (this info is in the wiki of mafia as well, before Kevin posted) It could be a waste like you said, because they could look to frame him and make us believe he's scum...but that's it.  Not only that, but this is a very statement I'd likely make if someone was suspicious of me without thinking of all the scenarios.  At this point, I would agree it wouldn't be wise for the cop to look at TW because the framer would likely have the best shot of using his ability right, and if he came up scum it wouldn't be 100% certain either way, though I'd likely have to lynch him just in case.  But if suggesting an idea without thinking about all the scenarios was the reason to be lynched, you and Mandarijn and anyone else who agreed upon the breadcrumbs without me pointing out the problems with it then should be.

 

So case in point...all I see is very little evidence of anything.  What I see more is someone pushing reasons to get TW lynched which can be said for the likes of many people.  Mandairjn has been used as an example, but same could be said for King Hitler who hasn't posted tons of "substance" nor really looked to scum hunt, and Rafay, isocialism, whitebeard, COD, etc.  You want to point me to something TW has done that others can't be said the same for, then do so. The only thing so far that's any damning is his cop idea, yet could be him saying it before running scenarios of that being bad. You say you're scum-hunting, no, you're hunting a single person using reasons I could say for the whole bunch.  What I find most damning with you is your difference in this game then others.  Other games you call people out to get lynched when not active or use real life, yet you don't go after Imran for that...you go after TW for agreeing with breadcrumb idea, you don't go after Imran who agreed with still using it first after i said it was bad, you go after TW for not scum-hunting, but Imran has been inactive and hasn't either and TW has more then him, Imran just posted a very damning piece that pretty sums up he is scum, yet you don't go after him, you don't even call him out for it, you just let him speak for himself.  You have singled out an individual for very soft reasons, while shedding a blind eye to an Individual that has more going against him, and any other game he'd be your #1 suspect.  I mean I get why, he's already linked himself to you multiple times, you two are working in pair, so if one goes down and is scum, the other is likely to, especially Imran's last comment about the VT claiming where he singled you specifically out.  

 

All I see is someone starting to suspect someone because of a breadcrumb idea, and then using very soft arguments for things he said afterwards to make it more of a case against him....for which most can be said for multiple people.  If two people are more connected together, it's you and Imran.  And now, with Imran's latest comment, it is beyond suspicious to me, and it also links you with him.  

 

And lastly, let me refresh your memory from the CN game when I tried to claim I was a VT.  You called me out that a VT wouldn't try to save themselves and get (D3mon) who was inactive but likely had a PR lynched.  Imran's comment suggests the idea both you and him tried to indicate you were VT's on Day 1.  So please, without going completely against what you said, why would a VT look to out themselves on Day 1 they were a VT to save themselves and help the chances the scum hits a PR?  How would that be a good move to help out town?  Because it wouldn't be.  All it is, is Imran trying to take suspicion on why you and him won't get killed at night and using a horrible reason that if anything, only proves he's scum, because a VT would never do that.  This whole game we have been discussing ways to keep the cop hid the longest as well as get information out in case he died before he could...and then Imran suggests he and you indicated you were VT's that simply would make the cop or other PR's found quicker.  It was a crappy theory to try to explain why you two wont be killed at night, and it just puts a final dagger in you both that you're scum.  

 

I had a hunch yesterday you were maybe scum which is why I asked you the question.  But now with Imran posting and looking even more like you two are in cahoots, and the whole VT thing...yea Imran officially has solidified it for me and makes any suspicion of TW go away.  I don't care which one of you goes today, both I am pretty sold are going to come up scum...and if the first one comes up scum then the other is done for as well.  

woow. Holy hell..walls of texts. Rhizo back to his completely scummy rants again. This reminds me of him from the last game when he suddenly came alive after being accused of scum and started posting walls and walls of texts full of incoherent rambling. This time it seems we hit a raw nerve with voting on TW. I am not sureif he does this on purpose..but its almost impossible to respond to all his accusations when he is writing hundreds of lines in a row. You tried it last game too but it did not work..you were still lynched as scum. I had a good townie vibe from you, but seems like you have gone back to your scummy rants.
 
Anyway, lets see if I can make sense of some of his ramblings piece by piece. Please bear with me as I may not get to all of them in one go but I will address them all. Walls of rants does not mean you get a free pass. Here we go.

 

Imran is the individual who posts more then anyone when he's town. Yet this game, he suddenly has gone inactive yet pops back up when there is a needed push on TW. Now, we all have real life, I know this, but yet two other games where real life was the culprit for me not posting I wasn't given the benefit of the doubt. In fact, ABT pushed hard for me for that very reason because there was no issue with lynching me, I wasn't scum hunting or anything. In fact, I even made a post during the day that my real life was busy, just like Imran did, yet wasn't given the benefit of the doubt. I was forced to be active in those games because If I didn't I was for sure dead and I gave up little time I had with my wife for it. Even this very game, ABT called out how he hates when people try to use the "real life" excuse for not posting, for which I called him out for. But yet, Imran has sat here not posting, and ABT hasn't gone after him like he did me in other games. If I'm not gonna get the benefit of the doubt in other games, do you think I am going to give someone who wouldn't for me? No, Imran has been on these boards, he found the time to make a thread about Game of Thrones through this all, and hasn't posted anything but now suddenly pops out when ABT needs momentum to kill TW. Yea, awful convenient.

 

What? So I am scummy because I was busy in RL and had not had time to read the thousands of lines of crap you were posting in this thread? I am sorry but reading your posts really make me stop playing this game because I dont have the time to read lines and lines of your ramblings in the limited time I have to come and play this game. So forgive me if I post something more interesting ala "Game of Thrones" thread because I cant make myself read through your walls and walls of rants in this thread.

 

Secondly, please stop whining about what happened to you in another game. If anyone gave you a free pass or not. Its pathetic. You posted scummy and you looked scummy and you were therefore lynched and town was right. Whining about it now wont change it.

 

 

Now let's dig into Imran. Imran is the one who always pushes a lynch D1, yet was no where to be found on D1 for who got lynched, he in fact voted off someone who didn't stand a chance to get lynched instead of jumping on Robert. He in fact, took his vote off Fermion just so he wouldn't maybe get a late lynch on him. His reasoning, it's better to lynch a totally inactive one then an active one. So if you felt it was better to lynch an inactive one, why didn't you vote Robert? Why did you make sure to take your vote of Fermion/Canik?

 

Again, didnt you try this last game as well? Trying to twist my words into what Is aid or did not say. OK then. I will break it down for you in very easy small sentences so its easy to understand and you cant try to misinterpret in any way you want.

 

1. I have always advocated for a Lynch on D1.

2. I have always said Lurkers should be lynched on D1, not inactives who can be replaced and in this game specially wont be able to give an indication if they were PRs or now.

3. I was the one who thought Fermions posts were extremely scummy. I called him out and laid out my reasons. But he responded with some very reasonable arguments which made me rethink my accusation.

4. I am not extremely stiff or so sure of myself that I think I am always right. If someone can explain their actions/posts I look at it objectively and reassess. Fermions response convinced me that he should not be lynched based on the info we have on D1.

 

 

5. That does not mean I agree that the inactive Robert should be lynched. Inactive Robert should be replaced. I unvoted from Fermion because I did not wish to see him lynched on D1 specially as Canik had just replaced him. He was on 3 votes then, 1 more vote and he would have been lynched ahead of Robert. So of course as it was a choice between Robert and Canik, I said better Robert than Canik from whom i was interested to hear more in the later days.

 

6. Again, this does not mean I support the Lynch of a complete inactive on D1. I said lurkers should be lynched and I moved to vote the lurker iSocialism.

 

Day 1: Lurker needs to be lynched, not inactives or actives. Is this clear now or will you spin some more tale about what I was tryng to do?

 

Ok on to your next rant.

 

O, because you didn't want to be associated with the lynch of a townie, and now look to turn that around on KH because he was the deciding vote. Now we're day 2, now Imran is all against voting a lurker or an inactive person, and instead wants to go after an active player. His reasoning to not vote Canik Day 1 was because he rather an inactive over and active, now Day 2 comes, and it's the exact opposite. You had the opportunity to not vote an inactive on Day 1, you had the opportunity to vote someone who would give us something as well as likely help clear your name, but no you didn't...voting an inactive one in your book is better then voting an active one...yet now it's not.

 

 

Why not do the same Day 1? Why not use the lynch to gain information. What does lynching an inactive or a lurker give us for day 2? I pointed out several benefits of lynching Canik and information we could gain, you ignored it and voted a lurker who would of gave us the same information we got from Robert.

 

I already said, after Fermions final post I no longer was getting scum vibes from Canik. But it seems like you are trying to bring out what happened in Day 1 and try to get a lynch on Canik today. Interesting.

 

 

Of course scum would want the active ones out first, what are they left with...whitebeard who rarely posts, Rafay and Isocialism who are quiet...yea easy win

 

Lynching inactives day after day is a very bad strategy. It gives no info for scum hunting. Like I said a safe lynch for the scum. For good or bad we need to take out an active scum first. Just ranting about it doesnt make your accusation valid. Look at the last 2 games you played. Lynching inactives gave no info to town. Hwen you got lynched winning became very easy for town because then we know ppl who were taking sides and which sides. Its not that hard to understand. Spinning wont make it so.

 

 

I didn't see anyone suggest such, and if in fact you did that as a VT, then you do not want to win. Why in the hell would a VT indicate they're a VT on day 1...for which you're suggesting 2 of you did, possibly a 3rd. This would knock out 3 people the scum already do not have to fool with, making the chance of not only finding the cop but other power roles that much easier. After day 1 and the mislynch on Robert, the town would not have to worry about 3 people, with 2 chances of finding a power role N1. Like seriously? This alone would be the most unhelpful possible thing ever...to save yourselves, a VT by indicating it, and instead helping scum hit a PR more. You know better then doing that if you're in fact a VT. All this is, is you trying to make up an excuse on why the two of you won't be getting killed at night so when it happens people aren't questioning it, or get it down enough where it wont matter anymore.

 

I never said I claimed to be a VT on D1. Again, you are trying to spin words that I did not say. Dude, it didnt work for you last game. People figured out (although late) that you were scum and you are back to this again.

 

Anyway, I never said I claimed VT. Some of the posts ppl were making make it pretty clear to understand who is posting from the POV of a VT and some who were being very ambiguous (like Lyner). I said things like "guys with PR this is what you should do..etc etc." This indicates that I am a VT. Of course I may be trying to throw the scum off my trail by acting like that but the fact remains that some of us posted from the POV of a VT. You are again spinning and spinning things to get another lynch wagon on me. deja vu? Last time you were scum and posted pretty much the same things..taking words from my mouth and spinning them to make it seem like what you wanted me to say. Back to your old tricks again?

 

 

I'm very surprised because after all that days of your nice posting I see old Rhizo coming out. It seems that you've lost your temper after I've started prodding TW and came with the very same emotional crap (no offense) that contains no logic whatsoever.

 

By the way. This is exactly my thought after I saw his post. The old scum Rhizo is making an appearance again.

 

Of course now he will claim that we are both scums backing each other up.

 

You clearly were not in the game where I was in fact a scum, and people who played that game can confirm, I was extremely cautious to ensure that nothing could tie me to my scum buddies. I kept a very safe distance from other scum so if one gets lynched I dont get grouped as a scum as well. So even if I was scum I would not be backing up ABT like this. By the way, I have good strong townie vibes from Mandarijn as well.

 

You guys need to learn this too when you are scum. See what happened in TWs game. One scum falls and the rest of you are falling like a pack of cards.

 

 

What I am is me being sick and tired of you and Imran's pompous ass attitude every game. Every game you both do the same shit, and every game you act as if you're the only one who knows how to play this game.

 

Well this explains it.

 

Emotional bull shit.

 

You are not scum hunting. You are trying to get back at us because we lynched your ass in the last game?

So anyway, I skimmed through the rest of his posts and he is basically ranting about the same things and still whining about the last game where he claimed VT and no one believed him. I dont see anything else of substance that I have not already addressed above.

 

If I missed any point, let me know (preferably in less than 5 lines) and I will address them.

I'm not going to respond to wall of texts now, since I got no time in the morning. Just want to mention general insight. This game is pretty much over. Scums have made a terrible mistake by going va banque while they don't have numbers to overpower town. There are clearly two sides here:

 

-  TW, Rhizo (both undeniably connected after Rhizo's passionate defense) and KH which came in "Finster style" recently (drawing his own "conclusions" but not bothering to state what is his reasoning).

- Me, Imran and Canik - I don't recall much cooperation between me and Imran for instance, but for the sake of argument, let's assume we are team.

 

 

1. There can't be 6 scum. One of the team has to be clear and one guilty (theoretically there's a slight chance teams are mixed, but for now I leave it in the 'possible but not probable' area).

2. No matter how we start it, in no more than 2 tries we'll determine scum team:

  - We Lynch TW - he turns out to be Scum: we continue lynching that team

                           - he turns out to be Town: we switch to other team. 

  - We can even start lynching people from my group. We can even start by lynching me. I does not matter at all. We won't make more than one mistake and we can afford it. No matter what scums most probably have lost this game.

I'm not going to respond to wall of texts now, since I got no time in the morning. Just want to mention general insight. This game is pretty much over. Scums have made a terrible mistake by going va banque while they don't have numbers to overpower town. There are clearly two sides here:

 

-  TW, Rhizo (both undeniably connected after Rhizo's passionate defense) and KH which came in "Finster style" recently (drawing his own "conclusions" but not bothering to state what is his reasoning).

- Me, Imran and Canik - I don't recall much cooperation between me and Imran for instance, but for the sake of argument, let's assume we are team.

 

 

1. There can't be 6 scum. One of the team has to be clear and one guilty (theoretically there's a slight chance teams are mixed, but for now I leave it in the 'possible but not probable' area).

2. No matter how we start it, in no more than 2 tries we'll determine scum team:

  - We Lynch TW - he turns out to be Scum: we continue lynching that team

                           - he turns out to be Town: we switch to other team. 

  - We can even start lynching people from my group. We can even start by lynching me. I does not matter at all. We won't make more than one mistake and we can afford it. No matter what scums most probably have lost this game.

With that idea we can get a game plan going. We can lynch a member of one side (if that's what you want to call it) and have the Vig take out a member of the other. There are obvious cons. 1) We could essentially eliminate 2 town in one day. 2) the Vig would use up a X value from the cop. However, if the cop can hit a scum by his 3rd try, that 4th can go to the Vig for this instance. 3) is the Vig active enough to even participate for this?

 

We could essentially figure out alot of information for this setup imo. Say we lynch TW and the Vig kills Imran, we can get some results. If TW is scum, we go with you and start lynching our side. If Imran is scum, we start lynching y'all. In the chance they both are scum, my theory from early would be the most concrete reasoning imo. If both are town, the only bad side of this, we're down 2 townies and in a rough situation.

 

Ibe been awake for about 30hours so excuse my grammar and if this even makes sense

Djeezes 

 

From the limited games I played I've learned that most of these heated arguments are between townies (although there are some exceptions, hint: Rhizo But I doubt he would make this mistake so soon again as he wasn't really suspected yet...).

I have also learned that scum will support ideas/thoughts of townies to give themself town credit, so Imran could be doing this to Ali or the other way around, or Rhizo and TW.

My guess is there's probably only 1 scum in the 2 lists Ali posted (might be 2)...

 

We should not be focussing on this, as this gives the opportunity to all the others (including me, but iSoc, Rafay and WB in particular) to just lurk around and if even one of them is scum they'll win as they will not participate if they're not pushed and we'll have no information whatsoever.

 

I understand the urge to lynch one of the active ones, but scum will kill the actives any way and you'll be able to see the teams, etc. after that. We have good indications on Rhizo, Ali, TW and Imran now. If one of them gets killed (and they will as scum won't win if they keep all the active scum hunters alive, they rather keep the lurkers/inactives alive). Now we need to look/push for everyone else to get information on their alignment.

 

So we really should be pressuring the lurkers/inactives to participate or be replaced. As those 3 will win/lose the game for the town as has been proven in the games I've played and if they can just survive till the end we've lost (scum will never kill them)...

 

So I didn't want to vote earlier, but I'm gonna restart the wagon on Rafay to see if he starts talking again... (I know iSoc or WB are good candidates as well, but Rafay's increased activity on D1 to protect himself for me is an indication he might be scum this time)

 

Vote: Rafay

 

 

Also my updated list as now we've gotten a bunch of information:

- Chaplain and Canik: no real read either way

- Ali/TW/Rhizo/Imran: probably only 1 of them is scum who didn't really want to get in this situation, my guess would be Imran or TW

- Rafay is at the top of my list, he's doing nothing except when pressured = typical scum behavior

- KH seems town, he's new and trying to participate

- WB and iSoc: both doing nothing, could be either

Vote Count:

The Warrior (2): Ali bin Turban, Imran Ehsan,
iSocialism (2): Whitebeard, Canik,
Whitebeard (1): The Warrior,
King Hitler (1): Rafay,
Imran Ehsan (1): Rhizoctonia,
Rafay (1): Mandarijn,
Rhizoctonia (0):
Canik (0):
Chaplain of Death (0):
Ali bin Turban (0)
Mandarijn (0)

No lynch (0):

Not voting: iSocialism, Chaplain of Death, King Hitler,

 

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch or 3 at deadline.
Deadline is 13:00 EDT Sunday, June 12.

Holy hell there is a lot to respond to. I am going to respond to each post in individual posts.

 

Responding further to TW. I see you're defending your argument that:

 

"By all means ABT, go ahead and continue your quest to have me lynched. I'm sure that the mafia will appreciate you wasting your time and everyone else's. The rest of the town on the other hand will not appreciate it."

 

I don't see why a town would use this argument (desperate one, sure - desperate ones tend to make desperate moves). It has no discussion value, it's just an emotional attack. Town that's wrongly accused will try to explain his motives and reasoning because it's natural for him. He's not afraid because he's done nothing wrong - after all he's a town. Scum does not have that comfort (obviously he can't explain his motives) so he's prone to respond emotionally.

 

When someone refuses to see reason or consider other possibilities you aren't left with much other choice than to respond like this. I am making sure that the rest of the town knows that *if* I am lynched and *when* I come up as town that it was you and now Imran who wasted the town's time completely and should be under the microscope.

 

 

Secondly, I don't see you pressing people to post. Posting "People need to post more" or stating obvious facts "iSocialism is lurking, he could be a scum" is no pressure. That's just repeating what everyone thinks. What did you do about Lyner apart from writing "Lyner needs to post more" i one of your many summaries? Did it make Lyner post more? Or maybe it was me who prodded him and forced into more active stance? 

You're forced to be active, because everyone would notice your lurking instantly (it would be extremely odd for a generally active person to lurk) so you're active in a way that gives town little benefits.

 

What else would you like me to do then to draw attention to the people who aren't participating? I already cast my vote multiple times for one of them. It's pretty damn difficult to force someone to post who refuses to. And why the hell should they at this point? With you and Imran attacking the way you are they don't need to say anything. They can continue to lurk and watch. If any of them are scum they will want to wait to see if you can get me lynched without having to potentially out themselves. If they are town they will also sit there and watch so that they don't either say something stupid and cast suspicion on themselves or participate in the lynching of another townie and look suspicious tomorrow.

 

 

 

Thirdly your theories about me are extremely weak.

 

1. During D1 I spend a lot of time on theory-craft and after 20 days when I make a statement on D2 that we finally need to start focusing on people instead of theories that's a proof I'm in your eyes trying to disorganize town? Why would I spend a lot of time before on trying to organize town then? Care to explain that?

Also that "wild-ass-guessing", as you call scum hunting, is the very essence of mafia and we will not get away from it, because cop won't be able to find every scum for us. It surely hasn't stopped you from reassuring everyone that you're ready to jump on robert's bandwagon should there be less votes than required to lynch him.

 

Your actions on day 1 are notable for the town. Having said that: We didn't figure out what we wanted to actually do moving forward. Trying to organize and being organized are not the same thing. We decided on a few things not to do, but that's it. Why should we abandon strategizing just because it's day 2? Once again I'll ask you, why does scum hunting have to preclude continuing to strategize? I don't think you ever actually answered this or if you did I missed it amongst the other crap you posted.

 

 

2. Your other theory:

 

ABT is scum and thought Lyner could be the cop or killed him because of Lyner's comment about not forgetting about ABT's attempt to lynch him in the later days.

 

Are you're suggesting that I've started to poke Lyner at the end of the day just to kill him at night? Or maybe you're suggesting that I've got scared by his remark so much that I've killed him?

 

I was suggesting that it was a possible explanation as to why Lyner was targeted at night. Imran made the following comment about Lyner being targeted:

 

 

i. Lyner was targetted because he was keeping a low profile. Scum thought he may be cop. Agreed on this part with ABT.

ii. Lyner also was suspicious of TW and Rhizo. So its also possible one (or both) TW or Rhizo is scum and with Lyner acting like a cop (see point i) scum new there is a very big chance they will get investigated and hence caught as scum. So they could not take that chance and had to take out Lyner. If this is true one (or both) of TW and Rhizo is scum.

 

So do you agree with Imran on this point? If so, why is it that Lyner dying only incriminates me? Or Rhizo for the matter? If either of you are scum and suspected Lyner could be the cop, you would surely want him dead too so you wouldn't get investigated, right? Or is that only something that people other than you would do?

 

 

Wow, this game has made interesting turn and it seems it'll end really quick .

 

1. You asked why I've suspected TW and not Canik and I've answered:

 

In my eyes there's a big difference between Canik and TW. Canik is new, may have missed some posts, etc (so he got benefit of a doubt at the beginning). Secondly when you ask Canik why has he chosen to support it, he starts explaining it, shows some numbers. He's working on the idea, putting some effort. Maybe I've weakness for people that use reason, but Canik feels genuine in his efforts, even though I don't agree with them. Finally as I said, breadcrumbing is to little for me to believe someone's a scum...and I believe there's nothing more we could accuse him of (please correct me if I'm wrong).

As for TW, I don't really know why he supports it and it's suspicious to me. I'm trying to ask him about it and I get some evasive answers, emotional trips and accusations.

 

I supported the idea because I believe we have to protect the cop's information if/when he is killed. We all agree that the cop is working on borrowed time. With 11 people left alive and 3 scums in the game the odds of the mafia's role cop finding the cop tonight are 12.5% (1-in-8). The odds of the role cop finding a town power role are 37.5% (3-in-8). If we assume that the mafia's role cop used his action on night one and has confirmed information on one other alive townie (assuming they haven't found the cop already) that makes their odds of finding the cop tonight 14.28% (1-in-7) if we didn't lynch anyone today and 16.66% (1-in-6) if we do lynch today.

 

I supported the breadcrumb idea because I did not see a better strategy proposed at the time that would get us the cop's confirmed information before we lose him. Are there holes in the plan? Sure, but there isn't going to be a perfect plan for us unfortunately. At least that one would have given us some idea of what we could look for.

 

 

 

 

3. "You call out TW for saying for a cop to invesitagte him.  You're already looking for a way to setup him as scum no matter what". So you're also thinking setting up a cop investigation in a game with framer is a good idea? Pointing out it benefits scum is "beyond hard"? Also what's about that "fixating"? What kind of argument is that? How do you differentiate between someone fixating and someone that's suspicious and is looking for evidence?

 

You are dead set on me and not being even willing to consider that you are wrong. That is why I suggested that the cop investigate me. I was clear when I suggested it that it would be a "waste" of the cop's action because assuming the framer doesn't frame me, I am going to turn up as a townie. The reason that this isn't really a waste (although I would prefer that our cop find an actual scum) is that it would allow the cop to at least be sure that I am not scum. Then he wouldn't have to sit there in the coming days wondering if he has to worry about me after your crusade against me.

 

The odds are already strongly in favor of the cop finding a townie anyway 72.72% (8-in-11) without a lynch today or 70% (7-in-10) with a lynch today. With the odds already heavily favoring him returning a townie result on someone it might as well be someone whose name he could clear (if the cop even doubts that I'm town at this point). Or would you rather he investigate someone like Mandarijn or King Hitler who he might already have a good feeling about and then would actually be "wasting" his action?

 

If the mafia would choose to use one of their actions framing me tonight then one of the following will occur:

1) I am a townie who will show up as scum. Then you can go ahead and lynch me anyway as soon as the cop chooses to reveal that he found me to be scum.

2) I actually am scum, the framer's result will still show that I'm scum, and you can go ahead and lynch me anyway as soon as the cop chooses to reveal that he found me to be scum.

 

Worst case scenario for the town is that I get framed and the cop wasted an action on a false positive scum return and I am set up to be lynched tomorrow anyway. If this scenario were to play out there would at least be a silver lining for the town:

1) The mafia wasted one of their night actions that the role cop could have used to find our cop.

2) The town does not incorrectly lynch me during the day today and forces the scum to kill me at night if they want me dead. This would at least protect another townie from dying tonight and protect the town from losing 2 more people before day 3 begins (me today and a second townie tonight).

 

 

 

5. Lyner's case: I think most of the people will agree that scum's priority is to take out cop as soon as possible. Most usually cop will not go actively scum hunting - because that's what usually gets people killed at night. Good mafia will not shoot people randomly, they'll look for behavior patterns that may give away high value targets they're looking for.  Killing someone to frame someone else is terrible idea. Which statement is right? "Y is a scum because X pointed at him and now is dead" / " Scum are trying to frame Y by killing X"? You never know. You may agree or not with suspicions that killed guy had, but that's all. But hey, since that's fairy tale for you, I got some "reasonable" explanation from your pal, TW:

 

"1) Rafay is scum and figured that Lyner would eventually end up voting to lynch him at a later time."

 

I already addressed this particular argument in my last post. Imran said it himself that both himself and you ABT thought that Lyner could be the cop. So if we all believed Lyner to be the cop, why exactly would him dying only incriminate Rhizo or myself? Why doesn't that incriminate you and/or Imran as well especially considering your exchange with him? Never mind I think I get it: It only incriminates Rhizo or myself because it isn't you or Imran. That makes sense.

I missed an earlier post by Imran so here it is:

 

 

 

You ignored the scenario I posted. If you were scum and you thought Lyner was the cop (because of his keeping a low profile) and him posting clearly that you and Rhizo look suspicious to him, you would think there is a high probability of Cop Lyner to investigate you at night. So, even though you knew killing him will put you on the spotlight on the next day it is still better than the cop investigating you and confirming 100% you are scum. In this scenario, taking out the cop is a lot more beneficial to the town instead of other active players who are scum hunting. Me and ABT had pretty much indicated on Day 1 that we are VTs..i think someone else did too but I cant remember now...so we were not at the top the scum hit list.

 

This exact same argument can be used against ABT and to a somewhat lesser extent, you. If you were scum and you thought Lyner was the cop there would be just as high a probability that cop Lyner would investigate ABT at night because of their exchanges with one another (which were more than just a passing "TW's posts are sort of scummy" comment). If you are scum and ABT is scum you would have just as much reason to have Lyner killed at night as anyone else would even though the spotlight might be on you because it would still be better than the cop investigating either of you and confirming that you or ABT was 100% scum.

 

 

So do you agree with Imran on this point? If so, why is it that Lyner dying only incriminates me? Or Rhizo for the matter? If either of you are scum and suspected Lyner could be the cop, you would surely want him dead too so you wouldn't get investigated, right? Or is that only something that people other than you would do?

 

Please link me the post where Lyner thought I was scum.

I didn't say that Lyner thought you were scum. I said that if ABT and you were scum there would be just as much of a reason for you to want him gone as ABT.

I missed an earlier post by Imran so here it is:

 

 

 

You ignored the scenario I posted. If you were scum and you thought Lyner was the cop (because of his keeping a low profile) and him posting clearly that you and Rhizo look suspicious to him, you would think there is a high probability of Cop Lyner to investigate you at night. So, even though you knew killing him will put you on the spotlight on the next day it is still better than the cop investigating you and confirming 100% you are scum. In this scenario, taking out the cop is a lot more beneficial to the town instead of other active players who are scum hunting. Me and ABT had pretty much indicated on Day 1 that we are VTs..i think someone else did too but I cant remember now...so we were not at the top the scum hit list.

 

This exact same argument can be used against ABT and to a somewhat lesser extent, you. If you were scum and you thought Lyner was the cop there would be just as high a probability that cop Lyner would investigate ABT at night because of their exchanges with one another (which were more than just a passing "TW's posts are sort of scummy" comment). If you are scum and ABT is scum you would have just as much reason to have Lyner killed at night as anyone else would even though the spotlight might be on you because it would still be better than the cop investigating either of you and confirming that you or ABT was 100% scum.

Though, have you actually asked yourself, why would I prod Lyner if I were a scum? What would I expect to gain if I though he was a cop? And doing that just a day before deadline? Just to kill him at night?

 

To be clear I don't consider Lyner's death to be pointing at anyone. I may share his opinion about you, but that's all. Every death can be explained both way - "guy was going after a scum" or "scums used the fact that he was going after town to frame him" so it's no argument.

I didn't say that Lyner thought you were scum. I said that if ABT and you were scum there would be just as much of a reason for you to want him gone as ABT.

 

Thats a pretty strange argument.  Lyner clearly pointed out you and Rhizo as the two he suspects most. So if at least one of you were scum and you thought he was the cop you wont want to take the chance that he investigates you at night.

 

If I was not suspected by Lynr why would I want him killed. You may say ABT may want him killed (but at the end of the day he did not put ABT in his shortlist for scum) but you are stretching wayy too far to include me in there as well. Pretty mind boggling argument.

Rhizo, getting back to Canik and TW.

 

1. TW got my attention earlier (here's the trace, last sentence: http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-7?do=findComment&comment=857642).

I'm always suspicious about posts like that one: http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-7?do=findComment&comment=857927 , since I find it spammy due to it containing just rehashed common knowledge (posting summaries is one of the scum's indication).

But I take it was obfuscated and very hard to notice.

 

2. Then it comes http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-10?do=findComment&comment=858999 . This is another scum's indication for me. Canik gets benefit of a doubt, TW does not. His answer is evasive and that's yet another scum's indication for me. Still that's not the point I've voted on him. At that moment I was prodding Lyner and my vote was on him and not on TW.

 

3. New day. Lyner turns out to be dead. Canik keeps discussing breadcrumbs topic. He tries to explain himself and show his reasoning and that's not scummy action. TW is most suspicious so I'm placing my vote on him to start pressuring him (http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-11). You'll find there "no-substance-posts" argument there, so that's nothing new.

 

What I realize now is that indeed your perception might have been that I've been basing only on breadcrumbing. Stating that you've lied is therefore farfetched and may be incorrect.

However: 

  - If I were scum and Canik was town it would be stupid of me to try and lynch TW. I would join you in accusing him, or what's better I'd keep my vote on Fermion.

  - If I were scum and Canik was scum it would also be stupid of me to try and lynch TW using something my scum buddy is doing as a reason.

  - If I were scum targeting TW in general would be extremely stupid of me. There are so many other targets, that can't even fight back. For instance voting on Whitebeard along with TW. Voting on iSoc or Rafay. Why would I risk?

 

4. TW could have chosen to be calm and rational. He's instead chosen non-rational arguments (including "I'm a town" "argument" - was there any game where scum said he's not town but a scum? It's not verifiable so it bears no value) and that was another indication for me. He also asked to be investigated in a framer's game, which was a big scum indication.

 

As for a Framer, I don't read KevinH posts at all (except at the end of the Day), just scrolling through, so I've missed his explanation. Even though that creates different outcomes it's still irrational to ask for investigation. There's to much risk of framer spoiling the result (why shouldn't he?). What would we do after getting "guilty" result (which we would almost certainly get)?

 

Rest of your arguments is just showing some random people doing random things. I'm not sure why don't you realize that single action does not matter on its own. Mandarjin's posting general posts? Great (it also shows that tiny detail - Mandarjin is not trying to suggest to anyone that he's town). Now show me some other proofs. Why don't you start talking with him, ask him some questions and see if he gives you answers or tries to evade. That's what this game is about.

 

We'll I do realize why you writing all/some of this. This piece clearly shows you've grudge against me and treat it personally.

 

I hate when people get really cheap and bring RL as an excuse: "I don't have time to play", "I don't care about this game anymore" ... yet they lurk on. That's the lowest scum can fall in order to save his hide

 

 

This I completely disagreed with, and think it's a bit low of you.  I for one know this...i for one dealt with this in two mafia games, and times will in this one.  I was forced to take time away I had with my wife (which at times is little) because I was being suspected in both games, and had I not taken the time I would of been lynched for sure. I
was a SK and a scum, but neither my roles were any reason for not posting or strategy, it was real life getting in the way.  So I have sympathy for people who have this happen to them.  Normally I'd let it go, but yet Imran was one to call me out for it in past games and made me take time away to do so, you were one of them, so I'm not so quickly to give something that was not given to me, understanding.  But yet...you make this remark and Imran has been inactive and not posting up til today, yet you didn't call him out or suspect him like you did with me and others in other games.  COD has had the same thing in this game, you haven't called him out either.  Why not?  Is somehow they different then me?  Is somehow their real life more important then mine was in the past?  Why you so understanding with them and not me?

I think it was not just a bit but very low of me. That's why I've apologized for this 5 posts later (just in here: http://ironcentral.org/community/topic/57112-kh-12-sharing-is-caring-mafia-day-2/page-8?do=findComment&comment=858347). I'm sorry you're still holding it. I'm not treating you worse than anyone else. I'm just not eager to call anyone on that anymore.

 

I'm still holding my vote on TW, but I'm not convinced you're scum anymore.

 

[OOC] I know I'm aggressive while playing (and I don't find it bad), but if I'm indeed to oppressive / arrogant / or whatever that's crossing the line and spoiling your fun, guys please tell me now. I can accept critique and change my acting so that we can enjoy our game and not leave it in a sore state. [/OOC]

 

 

When someone refuses to see reason or consider other possibilities you aren't left with much other choice than to respond like this. I am making sure that the rest of the town knows that *if* I am lynched and *when* I come up as town that it was you and now Imran who wasted the town's time completely and should be under the microscope.

 

Thing is - that was your answer in your very first post after I voted on you. My vote was on #210, your first post after that was on #228. So what reason or other possibilities/explanations you're talking about?

 

What else would you like me to do then to draw attention to the people who aren't participating? I already cast my vote multiple times for one of them. It's pretty damn difficult to force someone to post who refuses to. And why the hell should they at this point? With you and Imran attacking the way you are they don't need to say anything. They can continue to lurk and watch. If any of them are scum they will want to wait to see if you can get me lynched without having to potentially out themselves. If they are town they will also sit there and watch so that they don't either say something stupid and cast suspicion on themselves or participate in the lynching of another townie and look suspicious tomorrow.

 

First of all noone said it's easy to get someones attention. But when you care, you try different approaches. Its not working on one suspect, choose another one, more "popular" (I'm pretty sure you could get much more support for pushing Rafay into activity). Voting on the very same person when you see it's not working is just lazy (or safe, depending on who you are).

Also, a very basic thing you can do when being accused is not to act irrationally but to try to clear yourself. I'm not attacking you "just because". I'm not trying to lynch you at all costs. I'm trying to determine whether you're town or scum. Just like in your game:

  - I jumped on Shah/Canik at first but bailed out as soon as I've got enough indications that he was town.

  - Then I've jumped on my next target. I would have probably chosen Finster initially, but he was less responsive, so I went after Rhizo which also felt scummy. He snowballed with scum indications so I continue to press him.

 

I'm not dead set on you. Should you start sending town indications, I'd bail out. But you instead have snowballed with scum reads(in my eyes), so what do you expect me to do? Take your word that you're town? We won't find any scum this way.

 

Your actions on day 1 are notable for the town. Having said that: We didn't figure out what we wanted to actually do moving forward. Trying to organize and being organized are not the same thing. We decided on a few things not to do, but that's it. Why should we abandon strategizing just because it's day 2? Once again I'll ask you, why does scum hunting have to preclude continuing to strategize? I don't think you ever actually answered this or if you did I missed it amongst the other crap you posted.

 

I think I've mentioned that among other crap, but you might not be paying attention. Strategizing is necessary and there's always time to do it (oh well just take a look I've managed to do that just between my other posts for instance here: #261 - even though I consider it now obsolete), but after D1 it's supplementary action with main focus being placed on finding scums / confirming towns.

The goal of this game is to find scums/townies and we wont manage to do it without actually trying to search. Can you tell me what did you do in order to archive that goal? Who have you talked to to get idea if they're scum or town?

 

My responses in green.

 

I have gone back and read through the entire thread again and have come to a couple conclusions. Since ABT loves interesting turns he'll love this one.

 

First Conclusion:

I do not believe that ABT is scum. Even though his actions are misguided right now I think that it is likely that he is a townie. Given the amount of effort he has put into his current crusade I am betting that he is simply a VT trying to do the right thing overall. I believe that Mandarijn is correct here:

 

 

 

rom the limited games I played I've learned that most of these heated arguments are between townies (although there are some exceptions, hint: Rhizo But I doubt he would make this mistake so soon again as he wasn't really suspected yet...). I have also learned that scum will support ideas/thoughts of townies to give themself town credit, so Imran could be doing this to Ali or the other way around, or Rhizo and TW. My guess is there's probably only 1 scum in the 2 lists Ali posted (might be 2)...

 

We should not be focussing on this, as this gives the opportunity to all the others (including me, but iSoc, Rafay and WB in particular) to just lurk around and if even one of them is scum they'll win as they will not participate if they're not pushed and we'll have no information whatsoever.

 

I think that the majority of the arguments between Imran/ABT and Me/Rhizo are nothing more than townies quarreling. Continuing to argue among ourselves is going to severely hurt the town, especially if 3 of us end up being town.

 

Second Conclusion:

The lurkers need to participate. End of story. If they don't we aren't going to win. I definitely agree with this:

 

 

I understand the urge to lynch one of the active ones, but scum will kill the actives any way and you'll be able to see the teams, etc. after that. We have good indications on Rhizo, Ali, TW and Imran now. If one of them gets killed (and they will as scum won't win if they keep all the active scum hunters alive, they rather keep the lurkers/inactives alive). Now we need to look/push for everyone else to get information on their alignment.

 

So we really should be pressuring the lurkers/inactives to participate or be replaced. As those 3 will win/lose the game for the town as has been proven in the games I've played and if they can just survive till the end we've lost (scum will never kill them)...

 

Even though I agree with increasing the pressure on the lurkers, I do think that there is one active scum participant among the two groupings which should be looked at first. Which brings me to..

 

Third Conclusion:

Imran is scum. There is a good deal of evidence that suggests this.

 

1. Activity:
   1. From what I've seen Imran is always actively scum hunting when he's town. I'm not doubting that he had some r/l stuff going on that hindered some of his time but that doesn't feel like the whole situation here. His first couple days were mostly spent jumping from person to person, claiming to be pressuring them, but then would ultimately back off and not even having a vote that counted by the end of day 1. By the time Imran returned and started participating more actively on day 2, ABT had already officially voted for me and given Imran something to work with.
2. Imran's vote:
   1. By the time that Imran finally showed up to post his thoughts ABT had gone further on his quest to get others to vote for me by posting several times (posts: #210, #225, and #232). ABT's main arguments were that I supported the breadcrumb idea, my posts seemed suspicious to him, and he didn't think there was any substance other than general truths.
   2. Finally, Imran shows up in post #241. He doesn't make mention of any of the things that ABT suspected me for. His two arguments centered on thinking my play style was sort of similar to other games where I was scum and the night killing of Lyner.
      1. A couple questions regarding my play style: If Imran hasn't ever seen me as a townie how would he know how I act as a townie? Shouldn't the goal of any player be to try and keep their play style relatively similar as scum or townie so as not to give themselves away instantly? You should always be trying to act as a townie.
      2. Regarding Lyner's death: The scum obviously would have known that Lyner was a townie. If at any point the scum got the feeling that Lyner was the cop of course he would have been the first townie to go at night. That strategy probably wouldn't change no matter who was scum. However, the people who would have the most to lose by killing Lyner at night (regardless of whether someone thought he was the cop or not) would be those who he may have called out before dying. In this case: Rafay, Fermion/Canik, ABT, and finally TW and Rhizo. If Lyner turned out to be the cop it would be worth it for the scum to get rid of him but it would leave them extremely short handed the next day if the town correctly lynched one of them. The other option though would be for someone who was not suspected by Lyner to push to kill him at night. Not only would this get rid of an experienced townie it could also be getting rid of the cop if the scum suspected Lyner to be the cop. This would be a really safe kill for the scum because 1) they would be off the radar, 2) they get rid of an experienced townie, 3) Lyner could be the cop, and 4) it casts suspicion on anyone who Lyner had a "run-in" with on day 1. Imran is one of the people that fits this particular mold and what do you know he shows up and one of the first things he does is to immediately float that as a reason to vote for me.
   3. Imran suggested that voting for anyone inactive after day 1 is bad for the town and therefore voting for an inactive makes you a suspect. He then points out that both myself and King Hitler fell into that category. My suspicion of Whitebeard did not waiver. I didn't suddenly vote for him because he was inactive on day 2. I suspected him on day 1 and he did nothing to change that and only made it worse with his nonsense posts and "I don't care if that looks scummy" attitude. I suspected him on day 1 and I suspected him on day 2. Why should I change my vote if he was still my top suspect just because he was a lurker and it isn't day 1 anymore? I agree that removing an active scum would serve more of a purpose for us but he was the only one that was really standing out negatively up to that point.
3. Imran's Habits
   1. First shows up in post #32 and mentions that only the cop should use his night action early on and then vigilante and jailkeeper should not. It was the beginning of a strategy that I think we all generally agree with since the cop's actions are the most beneficial to us in the early going. This post was good and looks like a good townie post but it wasn't adding anything new to the discussion after King Hitler basically made the same suggestion 6 posts before Imran.
   2. The most important piece of information that his first post provided in my opinion was when he voted for Whitebeard.
      1. At first glance it looks like the Whitebeard vote is just a vote against a lurker or inactive on day 1. I'm going to take this action a step further and suggest that it was actually a way for Imran to immediately distance himself from his scum partner, Whitebeard. In my experience it is reasonably common for scum to vote for another scum on day 1 because no one usually takes those votes seriously and there is no actual danger of that person being lynched.
      2. Whitebeard shows up in post #45 and votes for Imran, quotes him, and says that he voted because his BS detector went off (post #45). He could have done this because he didn't know any better or he could have done it because he followed Imran's lead as scum.
      3. Imran responds in post #46 and links the rookies to the OMGUS mafia page.
      4. Whitebeard claims that his vote on Imran was a joke and unvotes for him. Of course it would be a "joke" if they were working together.
      5. Imran unvotes for Whitebeard and switches to iSoc (post #86).
      6. Imran makes a point later to say that Whitebeard's posts are scummy but tries to play them off as just nooby (post #192).
   3. Was quick to disagree with me (post #89) when I dared to suggest that no-lynching on day 1 was a viable option and then he makes the case for lynching citing the fact that we should lynch in this type of game because there is less a chance of hitting a power role and lynching was one of the few ways to obtain information. Scum would generally not want to pass up the opportunity to lynch a townie of course. I then made the argument a couple posts later (post #95) that while it is true that the chances of lynching a power role were lower in this game than a role madness game, at least lynching a power role in a role madness game doesn't cripple the town's efforts like it would in this game for instance since there are a bunch of other power roles to return information. No response to my comment about that was made.
   4. Tries to push harder for a lynch in post #108 and states that there are three good options for a lynch: 1) Vote for lurkers like Rafay/iSoc and pressure them, 2) Use info from past games to pick a lynch candidate, or 3) Push to lynch the noobs/rookies. Guess which option he ruled out? Option 3. Why option 3? Probably because he doesn't want his buddy Whitebeard to be targeted.
   5. Starts commenting on Fermion's posts as being scummy and calls him out for a couple reasons including not wanting to lynch (post #114). Votes for Fermion in post #123. Pushes for a Fermion vote again in post #137. Unvotes for Canik (Fermion) late in the day.
   6. Lyner comments to Rhizo that he should vote no lynch if lynching an inactive Robert doesn't benefit town. Imran comes back and says that there are other options then no lynch and votes for iSoc.
   7. Is away for the first ~2 days of game day 2 and then doesn't show back up to comment until after ABT had built a case against me that Imran figured he could jump on and push. Joining ABT and pushing for me was a reasonably safe play for Imran to make. He didn't have to be the one to start a big push on me that would make him look bad when I turn out to be town. Instead he followed ABT's lead since ABT already had something built against me. Best case scenario for Imran would be that others would join and get me lynched. The town would then be down one active player and any backlash would fall on ABT first before him since he could just claim that he believed ABT had a solid case and was following his lead. That would keep him more out of the lynch spotlight longer and then also net the scum a lynch of ABT as well (another active townie) the day after I got incorrectly lynched.

 

I've been working on this post all day at work but it's time to head home now so I may be adding more when I get the chance.

 

I think that Imran is for sure scum, Whitebeard is likely scum and will be next when Imran turns up scum, and the third is probably one of iSoc/Rafay/CoD.

 

Unvote.

 

Vote Imran.

TW, as for cop actions. Getting town read is no waste. Imagine that cop comes out and says he got town read on You and Imran. It would change game a lot. Who knows if that wouldn't be more useful than finding a scum (obviously getting town read of iSoc/Rafay/Whitebeard for example is not that useful).

 

Arranging cop investigation is a waste, no matter how you call it. Scum's using up their action on framer, sure. But our Cop is too. What's more cop's action is more precious to us, because we're expecting him to come out on D3 (so we have just 2 tries).

That means scums will have no need for rolecop (At the same time keeping cop hidden for 4 nights so that scums are out of juice for rolecop is just asking for our cop to get killed).

 

Therefore in the end it's only us who are wasting their action and framer will be more than eager to mess with arranged cop reading. You you call that worst case scenario - I call that realistic one.

 

 

Other than bluffing I can't find a reason why would you ask for that investigation (because I'm 99% sure it would return guilty due to reasons I've mentioned).

Oh and I love your post (haven't read it yet but I love the look of all that points )

Thats a pretty strange argument. Lyner clearly pointed out you and Rhizo as the two he suspects most. So if at least one of you were scum and you thought he was the cop you wont want to take the chance that he investigates you at night.

That's an interesting way to put it. I believe Lyner's exact words were:

TW and Rhizo feels a bit scummy right now

That hardly seems like Rhizo and I were the two that he suspected most. That's quite a stretch.

 

If I was not suspected by Lynr why would I want him killed. You may say ABT may want him killed (but at the end of the day he did not put ABT in his shortlist for scum) but you are stretching wayy too far to include me in there as well. Pretty mind boggling argument.

There was no "short list for scum". Lyner didn't come out and say "I think X,Y, and Z are scum". He made comments throughout the day about several people. Rhizo, myself, and ABT happened to be three of them mentioned. ABT probably had the "worst" run-in with him of everyone mentioned. I'm pretty sure that Lyner saying "I'll remember your actions in future days" to ABT is a lot harsher than "TW and Rhizo feels a bit scummy right now."

 

There are several reasons why you could have wanted Lyner killed. If you believed him to be the cop then he would be your obvious target. It doesn't matter whether he said he suspected you or not. Killing the most powerful town power role would have been the best scum option if you thought you had him figured out. Not only is the town's only "real" information source gone but you would have managed to do it without any suspicion landing on you since you didn't have any disagreement with him. Lyner is also one experienced player that would be out of the way. It was a safe kill for you to make.