237 replies to this topic

[onbekende]

 

The EU commission is NOT selected from the members of the European Parliament. The Council puts forth a candidate (usually a national politician) and the Parliament puts a rubber stamp on it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission#Appointment

Once again, you demonstarte your laziness by failing to do basic research. Couple that with your haugty attitude and you might just get a clue to what I was talking about earlier. Either way, I find it harder and harder to take your posts seriously.

 

 

Guess your ministers are directly voted for then? How big is your election pamflet? Howmany votes you need to cast each election? Cause clearly you vote for every member of parliament, every minister, every cleaning staff member...

 

Yes some Commision members aren't directly MEP's, usually means they have taken someone from the national level which you (or rather the nation) voted in anyway.

 

Scotland turned down independence from the UK not too long ago, and some of you now believe Scotland will want independence now, because the UK leaves the EU? Then Scotland only wants to be UK for the EU? I'm confused...

 

I don't think this will be the last domino to fall. Soon others will want out as well. The global economy of the long romanced "One World" society is crumbling before our eyes. Humans will always desire their own identity, be masters of their own destiny, and excel in a competitive world. My British cousins decided they wanted to stay Englishmen, and the USA has your back no matter what the idiot currently in the White House says. Socialism sucks.

 

Scotland likes UK (55%), Scotland likes EU (62%). UK out of EU makes it a sticky situation for them. And while the effort from Scotland's side to join the EU as a sovereighn nation hasn't been made easier, it made it a larger "necesaity" if they so desire that membership.

 

As from the EU side you have 2 forces: EU not liking member states splitting up and UK barring such actions from within the EU. Force #2 is weakening to evaporating due to UK leaving EU, still doesn't mean that Scotland can just waltz in, I'd guess its atleast 5y before they get some truely meaningfull integration into the EU from the point they start negotiations.

 

 

 

and why on earth are you brining socialism into this? This is a nationalism spike against a liberalism overreach (which sounds ironic ).

[SeaBeeGipson]

So I seen this on Facebook from one of my buddies arguing with someone and wanted to know how true of a statement this is? It would put me as an American in a position to somewhat understand Britain and EU's relationship.

Americans Guide to understanding why Brits are happy without the EU:

Imagine if America was part of a Union where it spends $48 Million USD a week, US senators are constantly voted against, over 60% of US Laws are made in Cuba and those laws even override the US Constitution. Mexico and Canada have unrestricted immigration access to the US even if they have criminal records. And one day you break free from all of that now would you not be happy also?

(Disclaimer: We are aware the US would be in open civil war at even the suggestion of that type of Union).

[onbekende]

Well apart from being nitpicky about every notion posted (as its an simplification, which is fine in trying an analogy) some direct notes: no Constitution overrides and alot of decissions are a "all in favour or it doesn't go thruw" type deal.

 

But perhaps the most glaring issue of all: You firstly agreed to get IN the whole deal, not like the EU suddenly sprung up and claimed that the UK was a member...

[Canik]

I think that unrestricted immigration mostly applies to citizens of EU nations. I have heard of several EU nations turning away refugees. Italy turned back boats full of refugees. Macedonia and Austria turned some away I believe, and build/are building fences. I remember refugees were complaining because they just wanted to get through those areas to France, UK, etc.

[Icewolf]

Well there are a lot of things to say, and I doubt I will write them all here or today. This post will involve bad language. 

 

We are fucked. As a country, totally fucked. I am gutted. I worked hard on the campaign so it hurts personally to lose. This is also my career at stake. Not my economic well being, as I have more than enough squirrelled away crash to ride out a recession, but everything I have worked for over the last 4-5 years. 

 

7% currency slide in 1 day. A worse reaction from the markets than the 2008 crash. Companies already preparing to ship their jobs out. No functioning government. The only reason I suspect I am still employed as a person who delivers European Regional Development Funding is because Whitehall is too fucked up right now to have the organisation to sack me. The government didn't plan for this so expect chaos. That is direct from senior civil servants I have to deal with. 

 

That is all what the media are reporting, and they are missing the real reason this country is fucked. 

 

1. The European Union primarily impacts on those of working age. Those under 50 voted heavily to remain. Those who are economically active voted to remain. Those that are retired voted to leave. If the over 65s hadn't voted, or voted in line with the rest of the country, we would have had a vote for remain. Those who are youngest (ie, those with least job security and most impacted on by recession and austerity) were 73% in favor of remain. We have a country where the elderly do not give a flying fuck about the young and have just set out to trash our futures so they can enjoy a nominal feeling of nationalism. For fucks sake. That is not a recipe for a happy country. 

 

If you take this, and treat each age group as though they are the same size, you would get a result of 49% for leave. If you delete the over 65, its 45% for leave. So the over 65s, those with the least stake, the least suffering from the result, brought the biggest swing away from the average. People of my age are now furious, and with good reason. Firms are already cutting back recruitment. This years graduates will be hard hit. Next years harder. People looking for apprentiships, or coming to the end of them now have bleak prospects. People finally finding their feat after 8 years of recession. All fucking gone by an act of national stupidity. By a collection of people who voted for lie after lie about immigration, scare mongering about Turks and Syrians flooding us with rapists and terrorism, voted for that over the very real, and sadly coming very true, economic warnings of pain. 

 

2. I was at the count in my city (that broke 57% remain, 43% leave) on Thursday night. And I was horrified. Forget the overall result for a minute. What I saw made me realise that this country is basically at war with itself. This is not communities divided down the middle. Essentially every polling district was 80:20 split. Some for remain, some for leave. But there were no districts reflective of the final result. 

 

Communities are now totally at odds with each other. We do not have a debate between people in the same groups. That is something that is healthy for a country. We have a blazing row between totally different groups. That is something devastating for a country. 

 

And it then reflects over the Country. Vote Leave apparently were telling people it was "the heartlands voting against London and Scotland." What a fucking stupid thing to say. We are supposed to be a United Kingdom. How is London any less a part of us than the midlands? How is that supposed to build a United Country? Fuck them...truly fuck the lying cunts and what they have done to us. 

 

I really don't know what to say anymore. All around me people I know are seeing their economic security, their hope for the future, their ambitions fall into fucking ruin. All whilst the nation is probably going to fall apart. If not next year, the year after, or the year after that Scotland will leave. They are too politically separate now from the rest of the UK. Ireland maybe, maybe not. But its reignited the independence movement there, and historically that has meant war. 16 years of peace and prosperity, of putting aside the issue of Irish unity may have just come to an end. 

[Theophilos]

 

The one from Belgium, who else?

Oh really? Are you on the European Council then? Or maybe you're and MEP? Or maybe youre just selling the good old "the guy's vote that the guy voted for that the guy voted for on whom I voted is actually my vote" bullshit?

 

 

System of electors in the US... hello?!

 

Did you vote for every member of Hungarian Government as well? If you didn't then your point is moot. When you are trying to apply that requirement for the EU Commission, first apply it to your political system and once you do that, then come back and start pointing fingers.

[ccabal86]

The real mistake was putting it up for a vote. David Cameron will go down in history as an idiot, but that's of little consolation.

On the other hand the EU should have known better. There is a reason the average European has a disfavorable view of it, which despite repeated PR campaigns had only gotten worse over the decades.

 

 

 

System of electors in the US... hello?!

 

Did you vote for every member of Hungarian Government as well? If you didn't then your point is moot. When you are trying to apply that requirement for the EU Commission, first apply it to your political system and once you do that, then come back and start pointing fingers.

Exactly my point I'm trying to make. By the time someone is voted on the European Council Commission, the chain is so far off from the popular vote that it can hardly be called a popular vote. Which I'm actually FINE with, because democracy (as evidenced here) certainly has its limits.

 

What I'm trying to do though, is make sense of onbekende's magical world where the EU is a democratic institution focused of social welfare and well-being, where he voted on his Belgian councilor. I suspect false perceptions like that are actually quite widespread and had a good part in the Brexit as well.

Edited by ccabal86, 25 June 2016 - 07:54 PM.

[Lysistrata]

Imagine if America was part of a Union where it spends $48 Million USD a week, US senators are constantly voted against, over 60% of US Laws are made in Cuba and those laws even override the US Constitution. Mexico and Canada have unrestricted immigration access to the US even if they have criminal records. And one day you break free from all of that now would you not be happy also? (Disclaimer: We are aware the US would be in open civil war at even the suggestion of that type of Union).

This is a great comparison... and we would never agree to it in the first place. Thank you for posting this KH. I now have an better way to discuss the issue with others around me that have no understanding about what is going on across the Atlantic.

If you take this, and treat each age group as though they are the same size, you would get a result of 49% for leave. If you delete the over 65, its 45% for leave. So the over 65s, those with the least stake, the least suffering from the result, brought the biggest swing away from the average. People of my age are now furious, and with good reason. Firms are already cutting back recruitment. This years graduates will be hard hit. Next years harder. People looking for apprentiships, or coming to the end of them now have bleak prospects. People finally finding their feat after 8 years of recession. All fucking gone by an act of national stupidity. By a collection of people who voted for lie after lie about immigration, scare mongering about Turks and Syrians flooding us with rapists and terrorism, voted for that over the very real, and sadly coming very true, economic warnings of pain. 

Truly sorry about your personal situation, Ice. Life will deal you a bad hand many times, take a chance and throw away the pair of Jacks and go for that fifth Diamond. I have trouble getting my head around your total disdain for your 65+ block. Those are the ones that have lived through all the bad hands that came before. They know what life was like before the EU, and you should give them some credit for experience. Check out how the vote would have been if the voting age was raised to 25, and you cut out all those stupid young kids that never had to dodge falling bombs, they only have to find a good WiFi spot. They remember what Great Britain was, and they know what it means to be English. They just want their country back.

 

I would love to raise the voting age to 25 here. Everything would be run much smoother if we could just cancel those early liberal thinking years right out of the mix... but it would be unfair to take the vote away from the few that do the heavy lifting. Welcome to our world. We have been at war with each other for 30 years, we just have enough respect for each other to not shoot. You will survive. I do believe you will survive as English, Irish, and Scots. I myself... I'm fucking proud to be on your side.

[Bill N Ted]

Well apart from being nitpicky about every notion posted (as its an simplification, which is fine in trying an analogy) some direct notes: no Constitution overrides and alot of decissions are a "all in favour or it doesn't go thruw" type deal.

 

But perhaps the most glaring issue of all: You firstly agreed to get IN the whole deal, not like the EU suddenly sprung up and claimed that the UK was a member...

 

The older generation voted for a common market, not a European super state where there is an unelected political elite that are untouchable by the ballot box.

 

 

Well there are a lot of things to say, and I doubt I will write them all here or today. This post will involve bad language. 

 

We are fucked. As a country, totally fucked. I am gutted. I worked hard on the campaign so it hurts personally to lose. This is also my career at stake. Not my economic well being, as I have more than enough squirrelled away crash to ride out a recession, but everything I have worked for over the last 4-5 years. 

 

7% currency slide in 1 day. A worse reaction from the markets than the 2008 crash. Companies already preparing to ship their jobs out. No functioning government. The only reason I suspect I am still employed as a person who delivers European Regional Development Funding is because Whitehall is too fucked up right now to have the organisation to sack me. The government didn't plan for this so expect chaos. That is direct from senior civil servants I have to deal with. 

 

With respects Icewolf I agree with Lysistrata, the older generation know what life was like prior to the common market prior to it morphing into the abomination that it is today.  The currency slide is neither here nor there, the pound had been gaining strength prior to BREXIT as it was viewed as a sure victory for remain, when remain lost the markets realised they had hyped the pound up and it came down.  Friday was the first time they have been given an opportunity to leave; many of them voted to leave.

 

I will be blunt and say that maybe you should view this as an opportunity as opposed to a personal defeat.  

 

I hope that the gravy train really ends and a lot of people who don't really contribute to society merely shuffle other peoples money around and peddle the ideas of the establishment whilst sucking at the teat of uncle government will now have to go out and get a proper job.  If generation snowflake is upset it could be worse; we could have youth unemployment like Greece or Spain, and the desperation of having to rummage through the bins for something to eat or prostitution of the young to keep a roof over the heads, both EU members; but if its easier to hate on their grandparents and parents for "making the wrong choice" so be it.  For all the talk of uniting the country maybe it would be wise not to bang on about this being the fault of the older generation?  What are you going to do remove their vote?  The old people live here too and helped build this country; generation snow flake are Johnny come lately's to the nation and are reaping the fruits of the generation that came before; it would be totally undemocratic and perverse not to take the views of the people who built the country that we currently enjoy into account.  But if you want to be pissed sure; just know that is democracy, you always have someone that looses out.  

 

If it helps I had a similar feeling of democracy utterly failing when Joe public voted for 13 years of Blair and Brown; but it is what it is.  I also remember Mr Brown selling off 400 tons of the UK gold reserve for a pittance - what a mistake / act of criminal negligence that was.  

 

Go and learn something new, a trade or profession; find something that you find stimulating and rewarding and earn your own money.

 

I really do wish you well if it does come to you going to the unemployment line and hope that your situation improves rapidly should it come to that.

[onbekende]

The real mistake was putting it up for a vote. David Cameron will go down in history as an idiot, but that's of little consolation.

On the other hand the EU should have known better. There is a reason the average European has a disfavorable view of it, which despite repeated PR campaigns had only gotten worse over the decades.

 

 

System of electors in the US... hello?!

 

Did you vote for every member of Hungarian Government as well? If you didn't then your point is moot. When you are trying to apply that requirement for the EU Commission, first apply it to your political system and once you do that, then come back and start pointing fingers.

 

Exactly my point I'm trying to make. By the time someone is voted on the European Council, the chain is so far off from the popular vote that it can hardly be called a popular vote. Which I'm actually FINE with, because democracy (as evidenced here) certainly has its limits.

 

What I'm trying to do though, is make sense of onbekende's magical world where the EU is a democratic institution focused of social welfare and well-being, where he voted on his Belgian councilor. I suspect false perceptions like that are actually quite widespread and had a good part in the Brexit as well.

 

European Council is all the heads of state of each member nation, I know there might be a tad to many "groups of people" running around but please keep them seperate. These fellows craft the major guidelines of EU foreighn policy and go by a "all in favor or nothing" rule.

- Seperate is "Council of the European Union", the council with the same basic outfit as the EU Council but limited to national representatives (ministers) of the scope required: All Finance, All Agricultural, All ...

 

European Parliament is directly voted in by member states "national" elections. This Parliament is filled with EU-level ideological groups in which each national party tries to fit in (not many independents, currently 15)

 

European Comission are the people that are a mix between ministers and heads of departments. They usually try to express the "laws" voted in by the European Parliament into "guidelines" that each national legislative body (aka your parliament) has to craft into national law.

 

 

Well apart from being nitpicky about every notion posted (as its an simplification, which is fine in trying an analogy) some direct notes: no Constitution overrides and alot of decissions are a "all in favour or it doesn't go thruw" type deal.

 

But perhaps the most glaring issue of all: You firstly agreed to get IN the whole deal, not like the EU suddenly sprung up and claimed that the UK was a member...

 

The older generation voted for a common market, not a European super state where there is an unelected political elite that are untouchable by the ballot box.

 

 

You just sound angry the unelected poltical elite isn't all drunking tea with a spot of milk...

 

[Bill N Ted]

You just sound angry the unelected poltical elite isn't all drunking tea with a spot of milk...

 

 

 

No I was angry that they are allowed to exist; but within 2 years they will no longer be my concern

[onbekende]

When you gonna abolish peerage then? Or just any political party? Perhaps a rule that any next prime minister should be a virgin political figure?

[ccabal86]

Words

That is correct, I was in a hurry and referenced another group by mistake. The correct term would indeed have been the Council of the European Union. Thank you for the clarification, I am forever in your debt.

[Icewolf]

 

Imagine if America was part of a Union where it spends $48 Million USD a week, US senators are constantly voted against, over 60% of US Laws are made in Cuba and those laws even override the US Constitution. Mexico and Canada have unrestricted immigration access to the US even if they have criminal records. And one day you break free from all of that now would you not be happy also? (Disclaimer: We are aware the US would be in open civil war at even the suggestion of that type of Union).

This is a great comparison... and we would never agree to it in the first place. Thank you for posting this KH. I now have an better way to discuss the issue with others around me that have no understanding about what is going on across the Atlantic.

 

 

If you take this, and treat each age group as though they are the same size, you would get a result of 49% for leave. If you delete the over 65, its 45% for leave. So the over 65s, those with the least stake, the least suffering from the result, brought the biggest swing away from the average. People of my age are now furious, and with good reason. Firms are already cutting back recruitment. This years graduates will be hard hit. Next years harder. People looking for apprentiships, or coming to the end of them now have bleak prospects. People finally finding their feat after 8 years of recession. All fucking gone by an act of national stupidity. By a collection of people who voted for lie after lie about immigration, scare mongering about Turks and Syrians flooding us with rapists and terrorism, voted for that over the very real, and sadly coming very true, economic warnings of pain. 

Truly sorry about your personal situation, Ice. Life will deal you a bad hand many times, take a chance and throw away the pair of Jacks and go for that fifth Diamond. I have trouble getting my head around your total disdain for your 65+ block. Those are the ones that have lived through all the bad hands that came before. They know what life was like before the EU, and you should give them some credit for experience. Check out how the vote would have been if the voting age was raised to 25, and you cut out all those stupid young kids that never had to dodge falling bombs, they only have to find a good WiFi spot. They remember what Great Britain was, and they know what it means to be English. They just want their country back.

 

I would love to raise the voting age to 25 here. Everything would be run much smoother if we could just cancel those early liberal thinking years right out of the mix... but it would be unfair to take the vote away from the few that do the heavy lifting. Welcome to our world. We have been at war with each other for 30 years, we just have enough respect for each other to not shoot. You will survive. I do believe you will survive as English, Irish, and Scots. I myself... I'm fucking proud to be on your side.

 

On the street I had someone snarl in my face I should be ashamed of myself and declare they were for Brexit because their father had friends who died in World War II. Presumably "dodging bombs." She was about 70 I would guess. 

 

Should I give her credit for that experience? That sound logic of thinking just because she is older than me and therefore better?

 

The European Coal and Steel Community was formed to prevent the war happening again. It was given the nod to by Churchill to do that, and formed at the initiative of a Frenchman. Was that the experience therefore of the older community talking? Should I trust more those that actually went through the war but after a mere 7 years realised the future was to put it behind them, or should I accept that because that woman is older than me I should take her "experience" and live on with the short sighted stupidity of tying political decision making to refusing to let go of regarding Germany as the enemy 75 years after the war ended? 

 

Is this person more intelligent, more rational and better equipped to view the future of my country because she is still desperately hanging onto a past of war and not a future of hope? 

 

Of course that isn't the really stupid part of her argument and her "experience." My Grandfather was in the war. 1940 in France, then in Africa, then in Italy, then in France again. Two years of war before the US even fired its first shot, and served a further 4 afterwards. Then settled in Derby and worked in a factory. His service medals are still at my parents house. He didn't speak English until 1946....a Polish soldier who fought alongside the British and the French in a display of European Unity against evil, before moving to Britain to escape another evil of a Russian Red Army that wanted him dead. 

 

I suppose it was the "experience" of this older woman that allowed her to see all this and that I should just hate Germany for a war that happened 75 years ago, and not stand by the memory of the cooperation that brought it to an end. I should be ashamed of that apparently. 

 

Or maybe I should take her "experience" of why I should just hate Germany and go and talk to my Fiancee. Her Grandfather was a soldier to. Younger, so serving in West Germany as part of the allied troops forming the first line of defense against the Soviet forces. He met a German woman, married her, moved back to England. According to this older "more experienced" woman my Fiancee is a disgrace and should be ashamed just to exist. How dare anyone have made friends with a German!

 

Now, I am not saying that this woman is typical of her generation, or even a represents a substantial minority of her generation. However it is why I do not accept any argument that rests on the concept of older=better experienced=knows whats right. Because despite allegedly being more experienced than me by about 45 years, this woman spouted nothing but bigoted crap. Utter, bigoted, horrific ignorant crap of the worst kind that the electorate just gave validation to. 

[Shahenshah]

Will this by any chance lead to less foreign intervention...imagine, if Blair and Bush weren't there, you wouldn't be having this massive refugee problem.

Also, I always assumed British immigration system was similar to AUS? If you're highly qualified and there is talent shortage , you get in or you stay out. I just kind of assumed that would be the case, its just common sense.

[onbekende]

 

Words

That is correct, I was in a hurry and referenced another group by mistake. The correct term would indeed have been the Council of the European Union. Thank you for the clarification, I am forever in your debt.

 

Dear Mister, I do see you striking a certain tone in these sentences.

 

 

 

Anyway, my to many groups that rule is genuine, for me it should either be all those "council of EU" or "EU Parliament", not both as they hamper eachothers work tremedously. Sad part both have valid reasons of excisting so I don't really have a preference which should stay

[Bill N Ted]

On the street I had someone snarl in my face I should be ashamed of myself and declare they were for Brexit because their father had friends who died in World War II. Presumably "dodging bombs." She was about 70 I would guess. 

 

Should I give her credit for that experience? That sound logic of thinking just because she is older than me and therefore better?

 

The European Coal and Steel Community was formed to prevent the war happening again. It was given the nod to by Churchill to do that, and formed at the initiative of a Frenchman. Was that the experience therefore of the older community talking? Should I trust more those that actually went through the war but after a mere 7 years realised the future was to put it behind them, or should I accept that because that woman is older than me I should take her "experience" and live on with the short sighted stupidity of tying political decision making to refusing to let go of regarding Germany as the enemy 75 years after the war ended? 

 

Is this person more intelligent, more rational and better equipped to view the future of my country because she is still desperately hanging onto a past of war and not a future of hope? 

 

Of course that isn't the really stupid part of her argument and her "experience." My Grandfather was in the war. 1940 in France, then in Africa, then in Italy, then in France again. Two years of war before the US even fired its first shot, and served a further 4 afterwards. Then settled in Derby and worked in a factory. His service medals are still at my parents house. He didn't speak English until 1946....a Polish soldier who fought alongside the British and the French in a display of European Unity against evil, before moving to Britain to escape another evil of a Russian Red Army that wanted him dead. 

 

I suppose it was the "experience" of this older woman that allowed her to see all this and that I should just hate Germany for a war that happened 75 years ago, and not stand by the memory of the cooperation that brought it to an end. I should be ashamed of that apparently. 

 

Or maybe I should take her "experience" of why I should just hate Germany and go and talk to my Fiancee. Her Grandfather was a soldier to. Younger, so serving in West Germany as part of the allied troops forming the first line of defense against the Soviet forces. He met a German woman, married her, moved back to England. According to this older "more experienced" woman my Fiancee is a disgrace and should be ashamed just to exist. How dare anyone have made friends with a German!

 

Now, I am not saying that this woman is typical of her generation, or even a represents a substantial minority of her generation. However it is why I do not accept any argument that rests on the concept of older=better experienced=knows whats right. Because despite allegedly being more experienced than me by about 45 years, this woman spouted nothing but bigoted crap. Utter, bigoted, horrific ignorant crap of the worst kind that the electorate just gave validation to. 

 

 

Older does not equal better, it is intellectually dishonest to think otherwise; generally more knowledge but you have imbeciles at any age.  A good number of my family (mostly older than me) I honestly think if there was any justice in the world would be put to the wall and shot as they serve absolutely no useful purpose to society other than maybe potential organ donors; within that group I can count 2 burglars, an arsonist and someone that ended up doing quite a long stretch in jail for attempted murder and another 8 that have spent the past 30 years on welfare popping out child after child most of which seem eager to pursue their parents life styles; they spread misery to the community and get rewarded for it.  

 

If the country was a dog with worms the vet would give the poor pooch a pill and the parasite would be killed to let the pooch get on with his life.  Alas people are not worms even if many do fit the definition of parasite.  

 

The woman is entitled to her opinion whether you agree with it or not, personally I agree with you on this one but hey, you cant agree with everyone.  Old people do not hold a monopoly on racism or bigotry; you will meet these people.  Not only will you meet these people they also live in the same country and they also have a vote no matter how fucking crazy they are, thanks to your buddies in Brussels have ruled that's illegal for the above members of my family (whom I obviously think very little of) to have a vote whilst they're in prison.  We cant even throw people such as hook handed Hamza out of the country without going through loads of hoops back and fore because of his "human rights"; thank god the Americans came along with god knows what contrived charges to extradite him. 

 

But here's the age thing popping up again.  I am 30 and I disagree with you; the bulk (around 80-90%) of my social circle are totally anti-EU, viewing the EU as the same abomination that I view it as being, the waves of the third world that Europe allows through its states to reach our shores and the subsequent rulings that follow.  Fuck we even allow and have been forced to do so by Europe to give child support to the parents that are in the UK for children that are not even in the country.  

 

We are at totally opposite ends of the spectrum here my friend.  I bet your someone that's gone and signed that petition for a second referendum, you come across as a democracy supporter but only when the result suits.  Generation snowflake needs to wake up, life is full of dislikable people who's views differ; it really needs to grow up and grow a spine because there are many many more things in life that will come following this that will be far more important.  

 

Our democracy for all its flaws is better than the chains the EU is offering; I sincerely hope that the MP's will make this happen, I forsee a lot of social unrest if it doesnt.  Remain has signed a petition that has got 2 million signatures in 36 hours - wow, gholly gosh, leave got over 17 million in a single day.  

 

Democracy = out we go or political and social chaos.  

 

 

Will this by any chance lead to less foreign intervention...imagine, if Blair and Bush weren't there, you wouldn't be having this massive refugee problem.

Also, I always assumed British immigration system was similar to AUS? If you're highly qualified and there is talent shortage , you get in or you stay out. I just kind of assumed that would be the case, its just common sense.

 

No Shah.  

Just turn up at the beach in an inflatable boat; walk the channel tunnel, jump in the back of a lorry and get yourself in the UK and say "asylum" and its a free ticket to a life on welfare and all the perks that come with that such as heath care, housing, translators (if you are in the UK and cant speak English the government provides translators - the question of what economic use is someone that cannot hold a basic conversation in English / Welsh is never brought up by the politicians).  You can come here with no qualifications, no language skills, commit as many crimes as you like without fear of deportation if you come from some third world shithole where you may be abused should you be deported; bring whatever infectious disease you may be carrying at time of entry such as HIV, tuberculosis, hepatitis and god know whatever else - you are encouraged to get screened for these if you apply for a visa, but if you just turn up minus a visa hey ho.

 

Got a health condition?  Just turn up on a visa or simply dont bother with that, you turn up get treated get flagged as being foreign and not entitled to free treatment, you have broken the law by illegally entering the country or overstaying your visa, and then before we can do anything with you we need to find out if this is available in your home country etc prior to deportation.

 

Generally you find that the highly qualified will use legal channels to enter, obtain work permits etc.  I have no issue with these people and encourage them to come to my and Icewolf's country.  

[Lysistrata]

Now, I am not saying that this woman is typical of her generation, or even a represents a substantial minority of her generation. However it is why I do not accept any argument that rests on the concept of older=better experienced=knows whats right. Because despite allegedly being more experienced than me by about 45 years, this woman spouted nothing but bigoted crap. Utter, bigoted, horrific ignorant crap of the worst kind that the electorate just gave validation to.

Ice, Ice, Ice... my good friend Ice. Your side lost your campaign because you guys insulted your parents and grandparents. I saw pictures of you guys holding up signs that said, "I'm Not British... I'm European". This is the equivalent of protesters outside of Trump events waving Mexican Flags with signs that say "Make America Mexico Again". This is a loser all day long. It magnified the mistakes that were made, and gave them a new assignment... a mission to correct the error.

 

Cameron committed an unforgivable error... he allowed this to be voted on. He did it because he believed deep in his heart that it would never happen. Then, when it started to look like he had made a grave mistake, he had this fool Barack Obama threaten the proud population of our closest ally. He gambled, and lost big. I only wish we could get rid of all the unwanted crap that Obama has done to us as easily as this was done. I would be howling with laughter if Obama put Obamacare up for a vote and we could kill it overnight... now that would be utterly amazing.

 

I would like to see new trade agreements drawn up immediately... but I don't think you will see that unless Trump is elected. We will put you in the front of the queue, because we love you guys. I drove an MG-BGT for years... strange carburetors, but I loved that car. I would still have it if I had not burned out the clutch in Phoenix when I had to be in Las Vegas. Shit happens, and we overcome.

[Bill N Ted]

 

Cameron committed an unforgivable error... he allowed this to be voted on. 

 

I speak for myself here; I 100% forgive Cameron for giving us this vote, god bless his cotton socks.  

I am pretty sure a good deal of 17 million others would also forgive him for giving us this vote.  

I am pretty confident that a good deal of 16 million will be making voodoo dolls of Cameron in the coming days.  

[Lysistrata]

 

 

Cameron committed an unforgivable error... he allowed this to be voted on. 

 

I speak for myself here; I 100% forgive Cameron for giving us this vote, god bless his cotton socks.  

I am pretty sure a good deal of 17 million others would also forgive him for giving us this vote.  

I am pretty confident that a good deal of 16 million will be making voodoo dolls of Cameron in the coming days.  

 

I speak for myself here... I am 100% with you BnT... I'm just trying to make Ice feel better, we have to still be in IRON together