456 replies to this topic

[Lysistrata]

As much as I hate to say it, Afghanistan was unwinnable.

Blah Blah Blah... Afghanistan was unwinnable the moment we decided to allowed them to live. The choice was to kill Osama bin Laden, and leave... or kill them all, and stay. The mistake was to believe there was some kind of middle ground. Victory only happens when your enemy is no longer breathing to tell a different story.

 

The tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

[ccabal86]

Wow, are you seriously suggesting that genocide could have been a viable option?

[Lysistrata]

No... but it's fun to hear all the jaws drop. We should have sold it to Russia... or maybe China. They're much better at genocide.

[onbekende]

onbekende, the idea of Nation Building was (and remains), sound. Yes, it's been bungled a few times.  Greatly bungled.  Especially when the US has decided that duly elected governments and their policies conflicted with their (US), vested economic interests.  Look at their activities in the Caribbean.  Especially those nations that chose a more socialist government, over bowing to the interests of powerful US economic syndicates.
I just finished reading a really good book about similar things you touched on "How to Hide and Empire", by Daniel Immerwahr.

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Well one of the big issues is the economic one, to be specific the economic one of the nation builder. You should build a nations economy to aid itself, not to aid the builder. Each time it was more like a colonial 'we will now tell you what to grow' type deals it all broke down.

That and this one ended in a defence contracted bonanza festival. If the main portion of your "nation building" goes to people swinging guns around infront og the locals, you are clearly missing the point. I have heared figures of "90% gun-money" thrown around (unknown of validity) but that alone should tell you the "building" part wasn't the main deal.
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On the same note, I work with people that were over there.  They all say the same thing, the ANA and and ANP were completely unreliable.  They were getting high on dope that they bought from the bloody Taliban.

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Heared that aswell. Probably didn't help that the $$ flowed to "bodies" instead of "abled bodies". Other rumours speak of the ANA/ANP being like half or even 1/3rd the actual people then advertised and paid for (and guess where the excess $$ went )
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The Afghans have always viewed tribe as supreme.  
 
It was all based on tribal loyalties.  The Mujahideen of the Soviet years, became the Taliban of today.  All based on who you tribal leader supported.
Never forget the Communist government of Afghanistan collapsed after the Soviets pulled out.
 
When tribal allegiance wins over national unity, there is no nation.

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Welcome to post-colonialism nation carving. Very few nations in the world have the kind of societal connection an actually nation needs to function on a national level. Empires in the past just amased territory and slapped a flag on it without anything more then the pointy end of a stick/sword/bayonet to keep the locals in place.

 

ps. only part of the Mujahideen went Taliban, hence for example you got the "Lion of Panjshir" thingy going.
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Let's even be more honest.  We can blame, Bush, Obama, the Orange Demagogue, or Biden.  However, they are beholden to the electorate.
How much longer do you think people were prepared to sacrifice their blood and treasure for a country, that some would have trouble pointing to on a map?
We are talking about a society that "literally, can't even" when their Skip order is five minutes late. Or their Amazon package won't arrive an hour after they ordered it.  Or they can't get the latest smart phone the day it is released.

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yep yep and yep.
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Wow, are you seriously suggesting that genocide could have been a viable option?

 
Hey, to be a good cynic you shouldn't be affraid to glass a couple nations. Glass the Middle East, build a wall around Africa, that kind of cynicism!
 
 

No... but it's fun to hear all the jaws drop. We should have sold it to Russia... or maybe China. They're much better at genocide.

I really hope China isn't the massive idiot to be global power #4 (or 5 or whatever) to go kick that wasps's nest for little to no gain. But for sure $$ will be poured into it, regardless of affiliation of the land owner, to obtain the minerals. And as shown around the world, sadly with deadly consequences for the locals

[HackSlash]

Well one of the big issues is the economic one, to be specific the economic one of the nation builder. You should build a nations economy to aid itself, not to aid the builder. Each time it was more like a colonial 'we will now tell you what to grow' type deals it all broke down. That and this one ended in a defence contracted bonanza festival. If the main portion of your "nation building" goes to people swinging guns around infront og the locals, you are clearly missing the point. I have heared figures of "90% gun-money" thrown around (unknown of validity) but that alone should tell you the "building" part wasn't the main deal.

 

Maybe I missed the point.  I probably didn't explain myself well enough , so we manged to get our wires crossed.

No, I don't think for one minute that nation building means (as you put it), "people swinging guns around infront <sic> og <sic> the locals."

When I think of nation building, its more in line with the Marshall and MacArthur Plans for post WWII Germany and Japan respectively.

 

However, the benefit to both parties has to be mutually beneficial.  Does that mean the builder gets to exploit the resources of the builder or install a puppet regime?  No, absolutely not.

It means, providing the necessary security, guidance, and if necessary funds so an implacable foe with an ideology and world view diametrically opposed to ours, becomes a stable, prosperous, and democratic state.

Need an example?

In 1919 we (Belgium is included in that "we"), punished Germany with the Treaty of Versailles.  If we had followed Wilson's 14 Points, I highly doubt, the soc-economic conditions would have developed in Germany to allow for Hitler to rise to power.  In 1945, a different approach was taken.  Look at the results. I haven't heard of any Huns bayoneting Belgian babies, or nailing Belgian Nuns to church doors.  Sorry couldn't resist,  WWI propaganda cracks me up.  I hope no offence was taken, as none was intended.  If offence was taken, I sincerely apologize.

 

Could a similar approach, a Marshall Plan for Afghanistan have worked? Maybe.  As I said in my previous post, Afghanistan is known as the "Graveyard of Foreign Armies."  They are still beholden to a very medieval way of thinking.  An intermix of tribal and family loyalties.   A country where War Lords still exist, where anyone with enough muscle and guns can carve out a fiefdom.

Maybe.

It would have taken a lot for us to give Afghanistan a chance.  It would have required a lot of patience, blood, and treasure to secure a democratic future for that nation.   Something I don't think our soft and decadent society was prepared to give.  Look at the response to the Covid-19 pandemic, if you don't believe m

[onbekende]

ooo we had no crossed wires, I was merely stating that the failure of nation building in Afghanistan was the proverbial "wave guns infront of locals" approach used on the ground (philosophy and actual real world differ always).

 

Looked up the Wilson-14, while it seems nice on the surface I would have my reservations seeing that the France-Germany animosity stems from deeper issues. That and I doubt there wouldn't have been reperations, which was the big thing that got hammered in any propaganda piece.

 

 

and last time Huns were anywhere near Belgium, we were still the most badass tribe found by Caesar himself

[HackSlash]

ooo we had no crossed wires, I was merely stating that the failure of nation building in Afghanistan was the proverbial "wave guns infront of locals" approach used on the ground (philosophy and actual real world differ always).

 

I stand corrected.  Maybe I should wear my glasses when I read this stuff.   I've never believed that waving guns in front of the locals was the way to go.  So I don't think we disagree there.  Like I stated, I do believe in Nation Building, when it's done right.  Not as a bonanza for Defence Contractors, but as a desire to see a nation democratize itself and become a valued partner.  Speaking from a personal note, that's not what (waving guns), we are told to do.  We are supposed to try and win "hearts and minds", be respectful, and try our best to show the locals that there is a better way.

 

Looked up the Wilson-14, while it seems nice on the surface I would have my reservations seeing that the France-Germany animosity stems from deeper issues. That and I doubt there wouldn't have been reperations, which was the big thing that got hammered in any propaganda piece.

 

Franco-German animosity pre-1914.  If you don't mind, I'd like to explore that a little more.  Yes, I know there were tensions between France and Germany.  For example the Dreyfus Affair.  Yes, it had more to do with the anti-antisemitism of the 3rd Republic.  Still the idea that a French Officer was communicating secrets to the Germans.  Yes, one could even go back to the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, and France's defeat that brought about a power shift in Europe.

However, all nations in pre-1914 Europe were tied by an intricate treaty web, and had fallen victim to ultra Nationalism.  Along with a Naval Arms Race between the UK and Germany (boys and their toys.)  Hey, you should see the grin on my face when I'm sending rounds down range with a C9!

Yes, you are correct when you said that if Wilson's 14 Points had been adopted there wouldn't have been reparations.   By the same token, I'd like to hear your take on that.

 

and last time Huns were anywhere near Belgium, we were still the most badass tribe found by Caesar himself

Yeah, of Celtic stock.  I think my ancestors would have a thing or two to say about that.  Hadrian's Wall ring a bell?

[onbekende]

 

Looked up the Wilson-14, while it seems nice on the surface I would have my reservations seeing that the France-Germany animosity stems from deeper issues. That and I doubt there wouldn't have been reperations, which was the big thing that got hammered in any propaganda piece.

 
Franco-German animosity pre-1914.  If you don't mind, I'd like to explore that a little more.  Yes, I know there were tensions between France and Germany.  For example the Dreyfus Affair.  Yes, it had more to do with the anti-antisemitism of the 3rd Republic.  Still the idea that a French Officer was communicating secrets to the Germans.  Yes, one could even go back to the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, and France's defeat that brought about a power shift in Europe.
However, all nations in pre-1914 Europe were tied by an intricate treaty web, and had fallen victim to ultra Nationalism.  Along with a Naval Arms Race between the UK and Germany (boys and their toys.)  Hey, you should see the grin on my face when I'm sending rounds down range with a C9!
Yes, you are correct when you said that if Wilson's 14 Points had been adopted there wouldn't have been reparations.   By the same token, I'd like to hear your take on that.

 

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Well I am far from a history buff, most knowledge comes from school even. Just gets more widely talked about cause its "local"

 

Alot of French-Prussian animosity can be traced to Alsace-Loraine, that and offcourse Nationalism (doesn't help France was being wishy-washy about being a republic of a monarchy...) and the Triple Alliance <=> Triple Entente to contain it made animosity only rise up further. The trigger was just plain stupid thou.

 

And I meant to state that while Wilson-14 seemed nice, I actually doubt any kind of reparations wouldn't have been envoked by France. Those did indeed lead up to WWII outbreak.

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and last time Huns were anywhere near Belgium, we were still the most badass tribe found by Caesar himself

Yeah, of Celtic stock.  I think my ancestors would have a thing or two to say about that.  Hadrian's Wall ring a bell?

 

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Nobody likes those windy and rained-out islands anyway

[HackSlash]

Well I am far from a history buff, most knowledge comes from school even. Just gets more widely talked about cause its "local"

 

I am.  Somewhere along the way, History became my second major.  You should see my library.  I'm usually interested in hearing a "local opinion" as you put it.

 

 

 

Nobody likes those windy and rained-out islands anyway

 

LOL!  I guess you're right.  Even my ancestors...but I think the Potato Famine had more to do with our leaving.

[onbekende]

 

Well I am far from a history buff, most knowledge comes from school even. Just gets more widely talked about cause its "local"

 
I am.  Somewhere along the way, History became my second major.  You should see my library.  I'm usually interested in hearing a "local opinion" as you put it.

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I never minded history, thou not actively looking it up. Mostly cause I like maps I guess, I got a lovely atlas that shows various historical processes/changes depicted on maps

 

You are always free to ask my opinion, I don't mind sharing
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Nobody likes those windy and rained-out islands anyway

 
LOL!  I guess you're right.  Even my ancestors...but I think the Potato Famine had more to do with our leaving.

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Still one of the largest diaspora to date no? Althou it now tends to shift more in a "I am +5th generation" so you kinda stop being a diaspora imho.

[Lysistrata]

This didn't take long... 8 months in and it looks like DJT has released his first campaign ad for 2024. Pretty damn good.

New Save America Commercial (rumble.com)

[Lysistrata]

Things may be turning red hot in Georgia. It looks like authorities have election night video evidence of 240 Democrat ballot traffickers dumping thousands of ballots into drop boxes in the middle of the night, all over Georgia... and they were wearing gloves. Even if the ballots were real... which they probably are not... ballot harvesting is illegal in Georgia. This will not be ignored.

[HackSlash]

You are always free to ask my opinion, I don't mind sharing .

 

Oh, you're going to regret that!  LOL.

 

Still one of the largest diaspora to date no? Althou it now tends to shift more in a "I am +5th generation" so you kinda stop being a diaspora imho.

 

Well, not the largest. Not by a long shot. There are others that come time mind, like the African Slave Trade. I was just poking fun at your comment  "Nobody likes those wind swept isles anyway"   You forgot to mention rain...and fog.

[onbekende]

 

Still one of the largest diaspora to date no? Althou it now tends to shift more in a "I am +5th generation" so you kinda stop being a diaspora imho.

Well, not the largest. Not by a long shot. There are others that come time mind, like the African Slave Trade. I was just poking fun at your comment "Nobody likes those wind swept isles anyway" You forgot to mention rain...and fog.

 

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Largest before my "5th generation" mark. And to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't call the African Slave Trade a diaspora, for starters it was way to diverse of a group. Might aswell throw everyone descending from the African Migrations of Homo Sapiens in the mix then
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Things may be turning red hot in Georgia. It looks like authorities have election night video evidence of 240 Democrat ballot traffickers dumping thousands of ballots into drop boxes in the middle of the night, all over Georgia... and they were wearing gloves. Even if the ballots were real... which they probably are not... ballot harvesting is illegal in Georgia. This will not be ignored.

Tell me when actual evidence is disseminated instead of Breitbart just wanting to be relevant again...
 
Not releacing those video's just makes this seem like Kraken 2.0
 
Less bark, more bite plz.

[Lysistrata]

Tell me when actual evidence is disseminated instead of Breitbart just wanting to be relevant again...

It appears that the mainstream media feels the same way you do about it, but that doesn't mean it has not happened. This issue is way too hot to be talking about, and no one wants to stick their neck out too far. Too many lawsuits flying around for anyone to be too comfortable to report it. It's not just Georgia... it's Arizona too, and Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania are dragging their feet, but they'll be coughing it up soon as well. We shall see...

Exposed: Ballot Trafficking in Georgia and Arizona – Iowa Climate Science Education

[onbekende]

PROOF

 

if you got it, you roll it out with much fanfare.

 

Or are they looking for bamboo in those dropped ballots...

[Lysistrata]

PROOF   if you got it, you roll it out with much fanfare.   Or are they looking for bamboo in those dropped ballots...

My guess is they're looking at everything. I don't "got" anything, because I'm not doing it... and it means nothing to Belgium. 

[onbekende]

And I mean when you talk about having "27 TB of evidence" while shouting about also having video's, you might want to actually SHOW the evidence.

 

Half the GOP seems to be devolving into conspiracy over conspiracy. Wondering when they will claim one of the golden oldies like chemtrails to be Biden's fault.

[Lysistrata]

Arizona Day is September 24, probably another bad day for Joe

Arizona 2020 election audit report due for public release Sept. 24 | Washington Examiner

[onbekende]

Whats the changes I got less bamboo in my garden then they found on the ballots? I do have a sizeable bush >_>